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Thinking about the Atonement or Reconciliation

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Yes I have. Several times. But the Jews could not legally have executed the Lord Jesus (John 18:31); they were dependent upon the Romans doing it. They had previously tried to lynch Him and failed (Luke 4:28-30; John 8:59) because it was 'determined' that He should die on a cross.
Why did the Jews have to legally do it?

I agree it was determined that He should die on a cross (I said this several times). But that does not explain the reason.

What I am saying, @Martin Marprelate , has noting to do with Roman law or demonstrating to the crowd that Jesus was considered accursed by the Jewish leadership. I am asking about the Atonement itself. Why was it determined that He should die on a cross?

Christus Victor is clear not only on Christ's suffering and death but on the type of death that Christ had to die. It had to be a cross at the hands of the Romans (not just because that was secular law but because of the atonement itself).
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
You have done the quotes all wrong in your post #98. You might want to edit it, as I have done to my post #96.
Thank you. I just deleted it instead of working through the mess. If I need to clarify anything for you let me know, but I think the posts afterwards covered that post.

Must be a fat finger on the keyboard day for me :(
 

Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Why did the Jews have to do it legally?
Oh please! Enough of the same questions over and over again! I have told you.
1. Because it was God's will that both Jews and Gentiles be guilty of our Lord's death.
2. Because they had tried to lynch Him three times and failed, so they brought the Romans in.
3. Because they wanted Him clearly and publicly to die under the manifest curse of God.
I'm sure I've given you more reasons than that. Look them up.
I agree it was determined that He should die on a cross (I said this several times). But that does not explain the reason.

What I am saying, @Martin Marprelate , has noting to do with Roman law or demonstrating to the crowd that Jesus was considered accursed by the Jewish leadership. I am asking about the Atonement itself. Why was it determined that He should die on a cross?

Christus Victor is clear not only on Christ's suffering and death but on the type of death that Christ had to die. It had to be a cross at the hands of the Romans (not just because that was secular law but because of the atonement itself).
If Christus Victor is saying that the Romans were solely guilty of our Lord's death, then Christus Victor is horribly wrong. The Bible lays the blame squarely upon the Jews, at least as much as on the Romans. See John 15:25 which actually references three Psalms, and Acts of the Apostles 4:10.

I'm stopping here for a while. I'm afraid you wasting my times with incessant repetitions and incorrect statements. I have to get these sermons done.[/QUOTE]
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Oh please! Enough of the same questions over and over again! I have told you.
1. Because it was God's will that both Jews and Gentiles be guilty of our Lord's death.
2. Because they had tried to lynch Him three times and failed, so they brought the Romans in.
3. Because they wanted Him clearly and publicly to die under the manifest curse of God.
I'm sure I've given you more reasons than that. Look them up.

If Christus Victor is saying that the Romans were solely guilty of our Lord's death, then Christus Victor is horribly wrong. The Bible lays the blame squarely upon the Jews, at least as much as on the Romans. See John 15:25 which actually references three Psalms, and Acts of the Apostles 4:10.

I'm stopping here for a while. I'm afraid you wasting my times with incessant repetitions and incorrect statements. I have to get these sermons done.
[/QUOTE]
I believe you know Christus Victor does not claim the Romans alone guilty of Christ's death.

The point is Christ died at the hands of wicked men, given over by the Jews. But under the power of the secular government rather than God's law.
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
This is not true. I reject PSA and, as you know because we have discussed this in the past, I do have an answer for how we escape the wrath to come. You just prefer your own theory.

These are the type of mischaracterizations that only serve to obscure, not to edify.

That said, your comment was that Jesus had to die a physical death because of the Fall (I agree). But then you just through stuff together.

Why such a horrible death? I know why my view makes the cross necessary but what about PSA?
He had to take upon Himself the judgement/wrath of God towards lost sinners!
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
You are still not answering the question. I understand that the doctrine of penal substitution states that God gave Himself in the person of His Son to suffer instead of us the death, punishment and curse due to fallen humanity as the penalty for sin. I held PSA for most of my life, I studied PSA as a graduate student in seminary, I taught PSA. I know you do not mean it this way, but it is a little insulting to assume that I do not even grasp the basics of a theory that I held and taught for over 30 years.

In the near future I may interact with your link. I told you then I thought it was an excellent presentation of PSA, but I do not see a need to go line by line as the reason I do not hold PSA is because I do not hold the philosophy of justice it assumes to be divine justice (I've explained this before). I agree with your passages on the link, I disagree with the assumptions.

Yes, PSA holds that Christ had to suffer instead of us the death, punishment and curse. But that was not my question, was it? I do not think it intentions but you are obscuring the issue rather than answering.

Let me try to explain the question and then I'll rephrase it. Christus Victor, Ransom Theory, Moral Influence Theory, Government Theory, Recapitulation Theory...almost every articulation of Reconciliation holds that Christ had to specifically suffer the Cross at the hands of "wicked men" - NOT under the law at the hands of "godly men" but at the hands of the Romans (who were in power in that area at that time). PSA is the only exception that I can think of that does not hold Christ's death on the Cross an absolute necessity. I'll speak for my view, but it applies to most others as well (not yours). Christ could not suffer and die under the law of God. Christ had to suffer and die under the world's justice because it is this justice, these powers, that Christ came to overcome.

Now to the question - I think that we can both agree that Christ did not die under the law (that would be stoning at the hands of the Jews, not crucifixion at the hands of the Romans). Here we are talking physical death. We both know that PSA requires (as you posted and I affirmed twice in this post). But the curse does not require Christ to suffer the cross. The curse requires Christ to die a physical death. The punishment (the "wrath to come") does not require Christ to suffer the Cross. The "wrath to come" would require Christ to experience an spiritual abandonment at least associated with the "Second Death".

You have not provided an answer as to why Christ had to suffer the Cross. Why not have Christ suffer under God's law (under the Law God gave to the Jews)? It would be a horrible death, and it would be under the law). How do you believe that the Cross itself was necessary?
Cursed by God was the One upon that Cross, and God Himself is the One owned and due the "ransom payment", as Christ purchased us back by his blood!
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oh please! Enough of the same questions over and over again! I have told you.
1. Because it was God's will that both Jews and Gentiles be guilty of our Lord's death.
2. Because they had tried to lynch Him three times and failed, so they brought the Romans in.
3. Because they wanted Him clearly and publicly to die under the manifest curse of God.
I'm sure I've given you more reasons than that. Look them up.

If Christus Victor is saying that the Romans were solely guilty of our Lord's death, then Christus Victor is horribly wrong. The Bible lays the blame squarely upon the Jews, at least as much as on the Romans. See John 15:25 which actually references three Psalms, and Acts of the Apostles 4:10.

I'm stopping here for a while. I'm afraid you wasting my times with incessant repetitions and incorrect statements. I have to get these sermons done.
[/QUOTE]
In the ultimate sense, The Cross goes back to the Trinity Themselves!
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I agree in part (as I offered the same passage). BUT there is an important distinction you are missing. The “we” in the passage refers to Israel. The Jewish leaders wanted Christ killed for blasphemy in a public arena which was public for the Jews, not the Romans, as it would be the Jews, not the Romans, who would have seen Christ as accursed. This could have been accomplished by the Jews and not the Romans (the Jews could have stoned Christ for the crime they accused him and hung his body on a tree until evening without Roman retaliation). That death would be a death under God’s law. What occurred was an unjust death under the law of God.

The question remains – is there a reason (other than the cross is made of wood and the crucifixion was public) in your position for the Cross itself? Or was it just the expedient way to meet those two criteria?
It fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah 53 concerning the Servant of the Lord....
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Why did the Jews have to legally do it?

I agree it was determined that He should die on a cross (I said this several times). But that does not explain the reason.

What I am saying, @Martin Marprelate , has noting to do with Roman law or demonstrating to the crowd that Jesus was considered accursed by the Jewish leadership. I am asking about the Atonement itself. Why was it determined that He should die on a cross?

Christus Victor is clear not only on Christ's suffering and death but on the type of death that Christ had to die. It had to be a cross at the hands of the Romans (not just because that was secular law but because of the atonement itself).
Did Jesus die under wrath of Rome then, of man, and not by/of wrath of God?
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Did Jesus die under wrath of Rome then, of man, and not by/of wrath of God?
Jesus died under the wages of sin, which is death. His death was under the powers of this world. Christ did not die by the wrath of God (that idea is not in the Bible).
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
It fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah 53 concerning the Servant of the Lord....
Yes. But Isaiah 53 spoke of Jesus (it was a foretelling of Christ and the Cross). We cannot say that Jesus came and just followed the Old Testament verses about Him. Jesus did come to fulfill the Law, but the Old Testament is ABOUT Christ (not the other way around).

Why do you believe that it was necessary that Christ suffer the Cross instead of dying in another public way on any type of "tree"?
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jesus died under the wages of sin, which is death. His death was under the powers of this world. Christ did not die by the wrath of God (that idea is not in the Bible).
No wrath of God in the Bible??!!
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Yes. But Isaiah 53 spoke of Jesus (it was a foretelling of Christ and the Cross). We cannot say that Jesus came and just followed the Old Testament verses about Him. Jesus did come to fulfill the Law, but the Old Testament is ABOUT Christ (not the other way around).

Why do you believe that it was necessary that Christ suffer the Cross instead of dying in another public way on any type of "tree"?
The Cross was the means by which Jesus was to be lifted up, in fulfillment of the OT prophecies concerning Him!
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jesus died under the wages of sin, which is death. His death was under the powers of this world. Christ did not die by the wrath of God (that idea is not in the Bible).
What is it about Him suffering that wrath makes it so bad to you?
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
What is it about Him suffering that wrath makes it so bad to you?
Nothing. I believe Christ did suffer wrath - just not the wrath of God.

The reason is not that it would be "bad" if He did suffer the wrath of God. The reason is Scripture does not attribute God as pouring His wrath on Jesus. What makes the idea bad is it replaces biblical atonement with a mythology based on human philosophy.
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Nothing. I believe Christ did suffer wrath - just not the wrath of God.

The reason is not that it would be "bad" if He did suffer the wrath of God. The reason is Scripture does not attribute God as pouring His wrath on Jesus. What makes the idea bad is it replaces biblical atonement with a mythology based on human philosophy.
Jesus death was in our place, so why would he not experience all that we would under divine judgement? separation from God the Father, and all that entails?
 

MB

Well-Known Member
I believe you know Christus Victor does not claim the Romans alone guilty of Christ's death.

The point is Christ died at the hands of wicked men, given over by the Jews. But under the power of the secular government rather than God's law
.

I think you are forgetting that Christ Died because of His own choosing. He laid down His life for our Salvation. He even said so.
Joh 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
Joh 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
MB
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
I think you are forgetting that Christ Died because of His own choosing. He laid down His life for our Salvation. He even said so.
Joh 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
Joh 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
MB
No. I am not. Like a "sheep led to the slaughter".

No one took His life except He gave it willingly. And it was by God's predetermined plan. Some like to forget, though, that He died not by the hand of God but by the hands "of wicked men".

We can't leave any of that out. We also should not add to it.
 
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