Why Are There Fossils?

Hi Phillip,
1. I did not say Adam and Eve ate animals. I said animals ate plants so death occurred before the fall.

2. You redefined physical death to only refer to animals including humans. But then your claim there was no physical death before the fall fails, and you provide a basis for fossils of plants, such as a petrified tree.

3. You correctly pointed out scripture does not describe the death of any animal before the fall, but the absence of evidence does not provide evidence of absence.

4. The possibility of animal death before the fall does not say Adam and Eve would die too. But Adam did know the word "die" before the fall, so the concept was part of his reality.

5. And once again I point out creation was very good for God's purpose, to choose for Himself a people for His own possession. If people are able to choose to bring glory to God, they are also able to choose not to bring glory to God. And the consequence of that second choice involves the wages of sin.

 

Hi Phillip,
1) You repeat the claim of a distinction between the physical death of animals and the physical death of plants. But you also continue to fail to support your convenient claim from scripture.

2) The road runs both ways, no evidence for death does not prove death occurred or did not occur.

3) And again, you claim a meaning of "very good" that excludes the basis for choosing to bring glory to God, i.e. the alternative.

 

Plants do not die to produce seed.

The seed dies to produce a plant.

The goal was for all animals and for all the sons of God to eat the fruit and seeds to prevent them from dying and overrunning the earth with more plants and trees.

Remember that plants, vines, and trees were created first. They did not need humans to tend to them. They need humans and animals to stop them from taking over the planet.

 

I take it you do not cut your own grass, or rake leaves in the fall. You must not pull any weeds, growing all over the place. You must not have to cut back bushes, or trees that keep growing up all through the year.

People are paid to do that. If not the plants and trees would take over. Yes, that is Adam tending the garden. Eating the fruit and seeds was not only nourishment for all animals and humans, it helped keep those plants and trees balanced and not taking over. What Adam and all the other sons of God, did not have to do, is till the ground and prepare it for all those trees and plants. Even vegetables came up naturally, without work. Not sure why this is a big deal. Keeping balance in nature is not a goal? It seems to me that in 1000 years, humanity had barely spread out and kept a balance. If they are like today, and even Cain, they probably just kept to cities, and forgot about the rest of the planet.

 

1) Yes, the life of "flesh" (people and animals) is in the blood, but that does not mean plants are not alive.
Eze 31:14
so that all the trees by the waters may not be exalted in their stature, nor set their top among the clouds, nor their]well-watered mighty ones stand erect in their height. For they have all been given over to death, to the earth beneath, among the sons of men, with those who go down to the pit.”

2) People who are physically alive are said to be dead in their sins and trespasses. See Ephesians 2:1, Ephesians 2:5 and Colossians 2:13. Same earthly writer (Paul) so to claim spiritual death rather than physical death was not in view is to make an argument from conjecture. Since scripture supports the concept that death (physical death of at least plants) existed before the fall, spiritual death in Romans 5:12 fits better in my opinion.

3) And once again you do not address that "very good" refers to very good for God's purpose, which is to choose a people for His own possession.

 

I have posted scriptures in many threads on the topic, as these truths are unraveled over many different topics. Why there is a reading issue with the same verses, I read, and the way other people read them, I have asked God many times. The only thought I get, is only by faith and trust in God can these things be revealed.

The verses are there, the words are there. People just hit a spiritual road block as far as I can tell. For one thing rightly dividing the Word of truth, can be found as a verse. The first 4 chapters of Genesis have to be split apart, and viewed as totally separate stories only loosely related and overlapping in certain areas only. You cannot apply what one says and use it to replace ideas in any of the other chapters.

Adam is in chapter 1, but not as Adam. Eve is not in chapter 1 at all. Cain and Abel were born in the Garden before the fall. They are not mentioned in the first 3 chapters. Chapter 4 does start out After, but after what? It does not say what. Jump to too many conclusions and you will miss the story point.

There are a lot more twist that need to be avoided, but just telling you what is what will not work.

Don't use the word goal if that confuses you. I don't like the word balance because it is a New Age term, and over used by cults, pagans, and environmentalists. If I said economy, that may not go over well either. The fact is seeds do die, because that is a fact of life, even from day 3. It was not the loss of life, it was the first mention of being planted in the ground, dead and springing back to life. Genesis 2:5
"And every plant of the field, before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field, before it grew,"

11 Then God said, Let the earth bud forth the bud of the herb, that seedeth seed, the fruitful tree, which beareth fruit according to his kind, which hath his seed in itself upon the earth: and it was so.

12 And the earth brought forth the bud of the herb, that seedeth seed according to his kind, also the tree that beareth fruit, which hath his seed in itself according to his kind: and God saw that it was good.

9 For out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree pleasant to the sight, and good for meat:

29 And God said, Behold, I have given unto you every herb bearing seed, which is upon all the earth, and every tree, wherein is the fruit of a tree bearing that shall be to you for meat.

See how confusing it can get if you start cross referencing verses between chapters?

The economy was that all living life can eat the seeds and fruit as meat. However eating them all would be the end of plant and tree life. Not eating them, all living life would die. Since there was no death, the goal, God said there was no death, so that had to be a goal, even if it would not kill one. Would they even have starvation pains? The goal was a perfect economy, because humans, at least, could choose to eat or not. Since humans were perfect the perfect choice would just be to eat, and be part of the economy. That is the rational view.

Now if it was a perfect world and no need of new plants or herbs, and human biological anatomy changed at the fall, I would go a step further. What did chapter 2 verse 5 say again?
"And every plant of the field, before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field, before it grew,"
Yes, it said no seeds or fruit ever went into the ground. The only seeds God planted immediately (or over night) did not die, but were what they were without dying. Nothing died, zilch, nada.

Humans did not have intestines. Nor did the animals, until the fall. All that was eaten was burned up and turned into calories. No seed or fruit entered the ground. But take it or leave it. A perfect economy.

 

I am not going to try one more time. You did not address the fact that scripture refers to "spiritual death." You did not address that scripture refers to a tree "dying." You explained Adam could understand "die" not by seeing it when he might have pulled up and eaten a root, but by conjecture. Lastly scripture refers to physically living people as being spiritually dead, so that In my view, your mind is made up, and nothing I point to in scripture will alter your view.

 

I said Seth was the third son, not the last child. Some claim children were born way before Cain.

Where do I contradict myself?

Some say Adam was in the Garden for less than 24 hours. Why is 30 years unbiblical? The Bible says Seth was born when Adam was 130. What is wrong with saying the first 30 was in the Garden? Would you prefer 20 hours or less?

The Bible says the Seventh day was a Lord's day. What is a Lord's Day?

No, I said, "Don't take a narrative from one of the first 4 chapters and state it was explicit in any of the other 3.

And no, probably not in those exact words. I do not think that taking other verses throughout the rest of the Bible as context is wrong. Context is needed, but you cannot interpret the first 4 chapters with each other. You cannot declare that Cain was born after the fall, because the chapter comes in that order. Nor does the chapter declare in the chapter it happened in conjunction to any fall time frame. For instance, yes Cain tilled the ground. That does not mean it had to be outside of the Garden. Nor does the narrative say it was not in the Garden because of having to till the ground. It was in the Garden because Cain had a normal conversation with God, just like his father Adam had. Then God told Cain to leave His presence.

14 "You are banning me today from the land and from your presence. I will be a fugitive wandering the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me.”

An exchange of ideas is preferred. Unless you like "others just telling you, you are wrong all the time", perhaps some exchange is not that difficult? But I understand. I have been told I am wrong about most everything, my whole life, and do not expect it to stop, until the day I die.

 

I said that Adam did not have any more than 3, in reference to a post that said Adam and Eve had lots of children, either in the Garden, or after, but before Seth. The reason would be in Isaiah 65.

About Adam's age.
Genesis 5:4

4 After Seth was born, Adam lived another 800 years and had both sons and daughters.

Cain and Abel were born in the Garden, before Adam was 30. Around 30 years old, Adam disobeyed and was banned from the Garden. Isaiah 65:20
"for he that shall be an hundred years old, shall die as a young man: but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed."
Adam was the first sinner. He was cursed. When he turned 130, 100 years after leaving the Garden, God granted him a blessing. The birth of Seth. I do not know if Seth was told about God, but Genesis 4:26 says it was not until after Seth's son Enosh
was born did Adam's descendants once again seek God.
26 And to the same Seth also there was born a son, and he called his name Enosh. Then began men to call upon the name of the Lord.

These 4 chapters are about Adam and his 3 sons. They do not say much about the sons of God created on day 6. From the time Adam had to leave, and his descendants once again called out to God was 205 years.

So even Seth had to live 100 years before his first child. If you notice in chapter 5, The times of the firstborn kept getting shorter. At least up until Enoch. Something about Methuselah changed again. The next time it was almost 200 years. Were the named sons firstborns, or did Methusala start having only daughters? Was it not until after having daughters, they finally had a son? Noah did not have his 3 boys until he was 500. By that time we have the sons of God marrying all those daughters. I think Noah was single for almost 500 years.

 

Not if the animals were "babies" & were in suspended animation. I believe that was the case, as the ark couldn'y have held enough food for all of them, had they been awake, not to mention the "bilge".

And God brought most of them to the ark. No one, not even today, could travel the world & collect a pair of every critter there is.

 

Trees, no matter how well watered or how tall in stature have all been given over to death. It is not spiting hairs to stand up and defend scriptural truth. I do not claim to know the duration of the creation week, which is to stand firm in the truth of Job 38.

Adam physically lived many years after he ate the forbidden fruit, so spiritual death, separation from God is in view.
The death of plants appears to have occurred before the fall, due to Adam, Eve and animals eating plants before the fall.

 

Suspended animation. Now it's starting to sound a bit too sci-fi.