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Does God have active Wrath towards lost sinners in judgement?
- Thread starter Yeshua1
- Start date
timtofly
Well-Known Member
What makes you say there was none?
Has God's wrath been stored up for 6000 years? Only the living get to see it in person. Would not hell be enough wrath for the dead?
Noah Hirsch
Active Member
Even those unbelievers who have had yet gone to hell to face the wrath of God poured out upon them, to experience His wrath in suffering and torment for all eternity still do have the wrath of God abiding on them in this life.
"He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him." (John 3:36 ASV)
Such as do not believe in Christ already stand judged and condemned, though they have not yet died, gone to torment, or faced torment under the divine wrath.
"He that believeth on him is not judged: he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God." (John 3:18 ASV)
So long as we remain in an unbelieving and unconverted state we are condemned already.
It is said in Scripture, "God is a righteous judge, Yea, a God that hath indignation every day." (Psalm 7:11 ASV) Even those who can still repent and be converted, even those who have not yet passed out of this life are among those whom God has this indignation every day. This is evident in that after the Scripture says, "God is a righteous judge, Yea, a God that hath indignation every day," (Psalm 7:11 ASV) it then goes on to say, "If a man turn not, he will whet his sword; He hath bent his bow, and made it ready." (Psalm 7:12 ASV)
It also says, "For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: Evil shall not sojourn with thee. The arrogant shall not stand in thy sight: Thou hatest all workers of iniquity. Thou wilt destroy them that speak lies: Jehovah abhorreth the blood-thirsty and deceitful man." (Psalm 5:4-6 ASV)
Surely, among those workers or practicers of iniquity and lawlessness whom God hates are to be understood to be included those still living.
It also says, "Jehovah trieth the righteous; But the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth." (Psalm 11:5 ASV)
God also said to the Law to the Israelites, "And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your sun-images, and cast down bodies upon the bodies of your idols; and my soul shall abhor you." (Leviticus 26:30 ASV)
Consider also these passages from the Prophets.
"All their wickedness is in Gilgal; for there I hated them: because of the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of my house; I will love them no more; all their princes are revolters." (Hosea 9:15 ASV)
"I have forsaken my house, I have cast off my heritage; I have given the dearly beloved of my soul into the hand of her enemies. My heritage is become unto me as a lion in the forest: she hath uttered her voice against me; therefore I have hated her." (Jeremiah 12:7-8 ASV)
"He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him." (John 3:36 ASV)
Such as do not believe in Christ already stand judged and condemned, though they have not yet died, gone to torment, or faced torment under the divine wrath.
"He that believeth on him is not judged: he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God." (John 3:18 ASV)
So long as we remain in an unbelieving and unconverted state we are condemned already.
It is said in Scripture, "God is a righteous judge, Yea, a God that hath indignation every day." (Psalm 7:11 ASV) Even those who can still repent and be converted, even those who have not yet passed out of this life are among those whom God has this indignation every day. This is evident in that after the Scripture says, "God is a righteous judge, Yea, a God that hath indignation every day," (Psalm 7:11 ASV) it then goes on to say, "If a man turn not, he will whet his sword; He hath bent his bow, and made it ready." (Psalm 7:12 ASV)
It also says, "For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: Evil shall not sojourn with thee. The arrogant shall not stand in thy sight: Thou hatest all workers of iniquity. Thou wilt destroy them that speak lies: Jehovah abhorreth the blood-thirsty and deceitful man." (Psalm 5:4-6 ASV)
Surely, among those workers or practicers of iniquity and lawlessness whom God hates are to be understood to be included those still living.
It also says, "Jehovah trieth the righteous; But the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth." (Psalm 11:5 ASV)
God also said to the Law to the Israelites, "And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your sun-images, and cast down bodies upon the bodies of your idols; and my soul shall abhor you." (Leviticus 26:30 ASV)
Consider also these passages from the Prophets.
"All their wickedness is in Gilgal; for there I hated them: because of the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of my house; I will love them no more; all their princes are revolters." (Hosea 9:15 ASV)
"I have forsaken my house, I have cast off my heritage; I have given the dearly beloved of my soul into the hand of her enemies. My heritage is become unto me as a lion in the forest: she hath uttered her voice against me; therefore I have hated her." (Jeremiah 12:7-8 ASV)
Since Jesus died in our stead to bear our sin judgement, does that not include the wrath of God towards our sins?
Noah Hirsch
Active Member
Yes, it is.
Think some see that as being cruel, as why would God punish Jesus who did no sinning, but when Jesus became our sin bearer, the Father had to see and treat Him while on that Cross as like Sin Incarnate for our sakes!
Noah Hirsch
Active Member
The problem with that is that this glorious plan of redemption was according to a plan of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit who are one God, one God who is three in person from all eternity. The Son was willing to go to the cross. Not only did the Father in His love for us lost sinners sent His Son to be our Savior and the propitiation for the sins of the world, but the Son Himself died for us out of His love for us.
There was a Covenant so to speak between the trinity Themselves in this area!
On and on assertions are made without support from scripture. The Lamb of God takes away the sin of the world (John 1:29) one sinner at a time when they are placed in Christ and undergo the circumcision of Christ, the washing of regeneration. God accepts Christ's substitution sacrifice as full payment for each and every person God places into Christ's propitiatory shelter.
PSA is a Trojan Horse for Calvinism's Limited Atonement.
PSA is a Trojan Horse for Calvinism's Limited Atonement.
timtofly
Well-Known Member
There was no substitution. God never held sin to the human condition. Sin is just a result, not a burden. The wrath is on those who take full responsibility, when God says it is not necessary.
PSA personal salvation atonement. Saying that when each person "gets saved" it applies some atonement is just as reformed and wrong as any Calvin doctrine.
While it is true sin did enter the world, and yes death by sin. The Atonement was a one time act, planned by God, even before the first perfect human was created. No one, not even Adam messed that plan up.
If Adam messed it up, it would have been because he never ate. He abstained for all eternity. Perhaps a second Adam and a second Garden was plan B?
God knew however what would happen and did not stop His own plan. Nor was Adam a pawn in the whole plan. Adam was an experiment in free will. A natural part of creation. One that would be natural in all humanity if they so choose to enter the study of science. Adam was not a lab rat. Adam was God's plan.
Wrath poured out on the cross, because God told us. He also said it would be poured out on all those who reject the cross and God's plan. That is extra wrath not wrath taken away from Jesus.
So no, Jesus was not a substitute. God on the cross was God’s plan for this reality. It happened only one time for all time. All humanity was covered at one time. All were sealed unto Salvation. It is still a free will choice to have one's name removed, and be eternally dead.
the ONLY lost sinners saved were by the will of God, and he did not will all to get saved!
Jesus dies a Covenant death for the elect scattered all through the world.
Utterly false assertion once again with no support from scripture. To claim Christ died for the specific sins of the elect chosen before creation is a monstrous falsehood, denying the very grace of God.
I did not see any supportable assertion, Christ did not die for the supposedly previously chosen elect individuals specific sins. PSA remains the Trojan Horse of Limited Atonement. The Lamb of God became a sin sacrificial offering, a ransom for all, those to be saved and those never to be saved. Anyone and everyone God places into Christ spiritually, undergoes the washing of regeneration, the circumcision of Christ and arises in Christ a new creation, created for good works.
timtofly
Well-Known Member
Not if you are off alone sitting by yourself.
If you are a part of all humanity, all descended from Adam, then yes.
Change of subject question after change of subject question. To claim Christ died for the specific sins of the elect chosen before creation is a monstrous falsehood, denying the very grace of God.
On and on Y1 asks one subject change question after another, ignoring that all these questions have been answered time and time again. Pure deflection to hide the false doctrine of PSA. To claim Christ died for the specific sins of the elect chosen before creation is a monstrous falsehood, denying the very grace of God.