Does God have active Wrath towards lost sinners in judgement?

[Miss E]

I always understood that Jesus took our sins upon Himself and God looked away from Him, forsaking him, for did not Christ say "My God, My God, why has Thou forsaken me?" So I don't see that as being the wrath of God, just that God looked away from Jesus as Jesus took the pain and suffering of the Cross as a substitute for us. We did (and DO) deserve the sufferings that Christ went through on the cross. Just like an animal being sacrificed in the OT for one's sins, Christ had to suffer and die to take our place, so, thinking in that sense, did God's wrath go upon the lamb substitute when it was sacrificed in a man's place for his sin's? No. He was simply offered as a sacrifice and died for that person's sins, which meant the blood of that animal covered the sins committed and God overlooked them, thus, forgiving the sin. The whole point of the blood is to be a covering so God will look at the blood and not the sin, thus, the sin being washed in the blood. As the scripture says:

“Come now, and let us reason together,” Says the LORD, “Though your sins are like scarlet, They shall be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They shall be as wool. (Isaiah 1:18)

So I don't think the wrath of God was put upon Jesus, just that Jesus had to die for our sins in order for His blood to be over the sins which He took upon the cross, so that God now does not look upon our sins but on the Blood of Christ when we, as still sinners, yet to be washed, when we trust in Jesus and are covered by His blood.

I hope that all made sense.

Edit: Oh but to answer the thread's main question, I believe all unsaved people are under the wrath of God, because they are not covered in Jesus' blood so God cannot still look upon them in their sinfulness.

 

[Van]

We were choen in Him by God the father from eternity past, on individual basis!

Y1 simply re-posts his false doctrine while ignoring the biblical evidence. We could not have been chosen individually because 1 Peter 2:9-10 says we had not obtained mercy before we obtained mercy, therefore we had not been individually chosen for salvation during the first part of our lives. It is a lock.

 

[JonC]

I always understood that Jesus took our sins upon Himself and God looked away from Him, forsaking him, for did not Christ say "My God, My God, why has Thou forsaken me?" So I don't see that as being the wrath of God, just that God looked away from Jesus as Jesus took the pain and suffering of the Cross as a substitute for us. We did (and DO) deserve the sufferings that Christ went through on the cross. Just like an animal being sacrificed in the OT for one's sins, Christ had to suffer and die to take our place, so, thinking in that sense, did God's wrath go upon the lamb substitute when it was sacrificed in a man's place for his sin's? No. He was simply offered as a sacrifice and died for that person's sins, which meant the blood of that animal covered the sins committed and God overlooked them, thus, forgiving the sin. The whole point of the blood is to be a covering so God will look at the blood and not the sin, thus, the sin being washed in the blood. As the scripture says:

“Come now, and let us reason together,” Says the LORD, “Though your sins are like scarlet, They shall be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They shall be as wool. (Isaiah 1:18)

So I don't think the wrath of God was put upon Jesus, just that Jesus had to die for our sins in order for His blood to be over the sins which He took upon the cross, so that God now does not look upon our sins but on the Blood of Christ when we, as still sinners, yet to be washed, when we trust in Jesus and are covered by His blood.

I hope that all made sense.

Edit: Oh but to answer the thread's main question, I believe all unsaved people are under the wrath of God, because they are not covered in Jesus' blood so God cannot still look upon them in their sinfulness.

I agree that God's wrath was not on Christ. I do not necessarily agree with him, but NetChaplin once put it this way - God was not wrathful to Jesus when Jesus experienced what would have been wrath to us.

I believe Jesus was forsaken to suffer and die. God did not deliver Him from that suffering and death but through it. And we are the same way. We can know that God will be there, that even though we are forsaken to suffer and die God will never abandon us and although we die we will live.

That is my understanding anyway. Ironically I came to this conclusion because God convicted me about a sermon I had preached where I emphasized that God did turn His back on Christ (one morning I preached PSA, the next morning I was convicted I had preached theory rather than Scripture...strange how God works. It drove home the responsibility we have as teachers. It was a very sobering and humbling experience.

 

[Yeshua1]

Not according to the Bible.

Why do you believe God would not be just to forgive upon repentance unless He has first punished those sins He forgives?

God cannot vindicate and save the lost sinner unless someone else has atoned for their sins, and has taken in their place what was due them for sinning!

 

[Yeshua1]

God being infinitely perfect, holy, and just cannot just overlook our sins or turn aside from His justice by forgiving our sins, or declaring us to be righteous in His verdict as Judge without payment made for our transgressions of His righteous Law and government. Who can a righteous God, a righteous Judge pardon the guilty? "He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the righteous, Both of them alike are an abomination to Jehovah." (Proverbs 17:15 ASV)
In order to be both just and not violate His own justice God and justify the unrighteous God sent His Son to the the propitiation (satisfaction) for our sins. It is said of Jesus, "whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God; for the showing, I say, of his righteousness at this present season: that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him that hath faith in Jesus." (Romans 3:25-26 ASV)

God the father cannot just forgive lost sinners by their repenting and faith, as he must have someone atone for their sins and receive from Him the due penalty for breaking his law!

 

[Yeshua1]

Who said anything about God overlooking sin?

Scripture says God is just to forgive upon repentance (this means one turning from sin).

Redemption is the righteousness of God manifested apart from the law (not through it), God is just and the justified of sinners.

God set forth Christ as a propitiation, through Him we escape the wrath to come for God was pleased to crush Him, to lay our sins upon Him. By His stripes we are healed. Christ died for our sins.

Pay attention to Scripture, it really makes sense without adding to it. God was never wrathful towards Christ because the Bible says so.... Period.

God cannot pardon any one if his wrath and penalty for sin has not been propitiated already!

 

[Yeshua1]

Y1 simply re-posts his false doctrine while ignoring the biblical evidence. We could not have been chosen individually because 1 Peter 2:9-10 says we had not obtained mercy before we obtained mercy, therefore we had not been individually chosen for salvation during the first part of our lives. It is a lock.

God chose us in the beloved to obtain mercy!

 

[Yeshua1]

I agree that God's wrath was not on Christ. I do not necessarily agree with him, but NetChaplin once put it this way - God was not wrathful to Jesus when Jesus experienced what would have been wrath to us.

I believe Jesus was forsaken to suffer and die. God did not deliver Him from that suffering and death but through it. And we are the same way. We can know that God will be there, that even though we are forsaken to suffer and die God will never abandon us and although we die we will live.

That is my understanding anyway. Ironically I came to this conclusion because God convicted me about a sermon I had preached where I emphasized that God did turn His back on Christ (one morning I preached PSA, the next morning I was convicted I had preached theory rather than Scripture...strange how God works. It drove home the responsibility we have as teachers. It was a very sobering and humbling experience.

How is the wrath of God the father propitiated for then?

 

[Van]

God chose us in the beloved to obtain mercy!

Utter nonsense. When chosen individually for salvation, we obtain mercy, just read the passage folks, 1 Peter 2:9-10

1Peter 2:9
But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God’s OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
Note the audience has, past tense, been chosen and transferred from the realm of darkness to the kingdom of light.

1Peter 2:10
for you once were NOT A PEOPLE, but now you are THE PEOPLE OF GOD; you had NOT RECEIVED MERCY, but now you have RECEIVED MERCY.
Note the audience were at some time in the past, not a people chosen for God's own possession, and therefore at some time in the past had not received mercy. Thus being chosen and receiving mercy occur at the same time.

 

[JonC]

God cannot vindicate and save the lost sinner unless someone else has atoned for their sins, and has taken in their place what was due them for sinning!

I know this is what you believe, but you do realize this is not in in the Bible, correct?

God the father cannot just forgive lost sinners by their repenting and faith, as he must have someone atone for their sins and receive from Him the due penalty for breaking his law!

I know this is what you believe, but you do realize that the Bible actually says God is just to forgive lost sinners by their repenting and faith, correctd?

God cannot pardon any one if his wrath and penalty for sin has not been propitiated already!

I know this is what you believe, but you do realize this is not in the Bible, correct?

 

[JonC]

God being infinitely perfect, holy, and just cannot just overlook our sins or turn aside from His justice by forgiving our sins, or declaring us to be righteous in His verdict as Judge without payment made for our transgressions of His righteous Law and government.

Yet the Bible says God can, that our redemption is the righteousness of God manifested apart from the law, that the condemnation remains but the person is reborn in Christ where there is no condemnation (one must die to the "old man" and be made alive in Christ). God will not condemn the righteous.

I do not say any of this to change your mind. Your faith is yours and where you stand is up to you. A few years ago I would not have been able to convince myself PSA was a false doctrine. I never post to change people, only to suggest that they reexamine their positions on a constant basis against Scripture.

Personally I do not understand how anyone who affirms PSA can be a Christian. But I know that they can because most of my life I held that position as a Christian. The gospel of Jesus Christ is not hampered by these errors. That said, I could never hold that position again. Once you see the Santa suit hanging in your dad's closet you cannot go back to believing in Santa Claus.

 

[JonC]

God chose us in the beloved to obtain mercy!

You may want to reexamine this statement. It is not biblical (it is backwards, at least, but even then something seems not quite right).

 

[Yeshua1]

Utter nonsense. When chosen individually for salvation, we obtain mercy, just read the passage folks, 1 Peter 2:9-10

1Peter 2:9
But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God’s OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
Note the audience has, past tense, been chosen and transferred from the realm of darkness to the kingdom of light.

1Peter 2:10
for you once were NOT A PEOPLE, but now you are THE PEOPLE OF GOD; you had NOT RECEIVED MERCY, but now you have RECEIVED MERCY.
Note the audience were at some time in the past, not a people chosen for God's own possession, and therefore at some time in the past had not received mercy. Thus being chosen and receiving mercy occur at the same time.

God elects us, regenerates us, and then we receive Jesus as Lord thru faith!

 

[Yeshua1]

I know this is what you believe, but you do realize this is not in in the Bible, correct?

I know this is what you believe, but you do realize that the Bible actually says God is just to forgive lost sinners by their repenting and faith, correctd?

I know this is what you believe, but you do realize this is not in the Bible, correct?

God cannot just forgive lost sinners without His wrath and judgement for those sins be propitiated made!

 

[Yeshua1]

You may want to reexamine this statement. It is not biblical (it is backwards, at least, but even then something seems not quite right).

God the father elected us in Jesus, peregrinates us, and then we receive Jesus as Lord thru faith!

 

[JonC]

God cannot just forgive lost sinners without His wrath and judgement for those sins be propitiated made!

Again, I know this is what you believe but it is not in the Bible. You are aware that this is a humanistic idea of justice and not in the Bible...correct?

You are confusing two very different things here - 1. the wages of sin which is death and 2. the wrath to come which is the judgment that has been given to Christ.

With that, I'm going to let you go for awhile. You are just saying the same thing over and over again without any biblical support. That seems like folly to me.

You may want to reexamine your theology as it is broken. When you understand what I am saying please PM me and we can discuss things. Until then, God bless and best of luck with your studies.

 

[Yeshua1]

Again, I know this is what you believe but it is not in the Bible. You are aware that this is a humanistic idea of justice and not in the Bible...correct?

You are confusing two very different things here - 1. the wages of sin which is death and 2. the wrath to come which is the judgment that has been given to Christ.

With that, I'm going to let you go for awhile. You may want to reexamine your theology as it is broken. When you understand what I am saying please PM me and we can discuss things. Until then, God bless and best of luck with your studies.

My theology is the same one in regards to calavry as held by Calvin, Luther, Hodge, Grudem, Erickson, Gill, Moody, Spurgeon so seems to be in good companyh!

 

[JonC]

My theology is the same one in regards to calavry as held by Calvin, Luther, Hodge, Grudem, Erickson, Gill, Moody, Spurgeon so seems to be in good companyh!

Except Moody, Calvin, and Luther did not hold the same theology in regards to Calvary.

(Sorry, had to point that out....I do not care who follow, I am saying if you can't defend it by Scripture your view really does not matter).

 

[timtofly]

timtofly,


Not Adam, but seed of Abraham;
Heb2
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels;
but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Well now, how many Gentiles are in Abraham? The seed of Abraham was not left out, but the whole, all in Adam where saved. All those who chose to be. Were not Job and Noah two outside of Abraham's seed righteous because they chose God instead of disobedience?

 

[Yeshua1]

Except Moody, Calvin, and Luther did not hold the same theology in regards to Calvary.

(Sorry, had to point that out....I do not care who follow, I am saying if you can't defend it by Scripture your view really does not matter).

I am just saying that many Baptists and reformed in Church history had same thoughts in regards to atonement of Christ as I have! have you ever read the Cross of Christ By Stott?