The World in Johannine theology

[percho]

Yes, they do.

Some also, like me, waffle between "elect" and "the race of men"...
But long ago I determined that it could not mean " each and every man woman and child" because of what Psalms 5:5, Psalms 11:5, Proverbs 6:16-19, Romans 9:13 and many others clearly teach...
That God actually does hate the wicked and love the righteous.

That He will indeed cast the wicked into Hell and eternal torment, and it isn't because He loves them in the eternal sense.
So, when I read John 1:9-10, here is what I see:

"[That] was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not."

1) The first occurrence of "world" means "existence" in the material plane. This planet Earth, flesh and blood, born into "the world".
2) Same thing.
3) Earth.
4) Earth and all who dwell on it. The world of men.

Don't ask me why I understand it this way, I just do.

I disagree, and I imagine that you already knew I was going to.

The reasons are complex, but it has to do with God's love and how it is defined, and who it is shown to by His actions.
I admit that John 3:16 by itself can ( and almost without fail, does ) be used to show that God loves all mankind in the eternal sense...

But when other passages are brought to bear, I see that idea falling apart.

I have a question. Maybe more than one.

For God so loved the world.

On the day, Paul and ever how many were going down that road to Damascus, how many out of that group can we say for sure God was calling according to purpose?

What purpose?
Was the purpose, salvation? Salvation for just that, one, we know of for sure?
Why out of that group, why only one believed?
Why was it just Paul was able to see the light and reach down by his own accord and pull himself upright by his own faith and believe? Isn't that what we in reality believe that Paul was the only one able to muster up the faith to be saved and or save himself?

 

[percho]

I can see your point; it doesn't make much sense for John to use the word with different meanings in the same sentence. But I think there is a nuance that is different. Christ was in the world - not just the world that did not know Him, but the world that did know Him also. Because there is also a 'world' of those who know Christ. Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world." The sin of those who reject Christ is not taken away. The 'world' here is those who come to know Him: Jews and Gentiles men and women, old and young, rich and poor all over the - dare I say it? - world. So Christ was in a world where some knew Him and some didn't.

John 1:29 Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.-------- of a ordered system.

My understanding.

1 Peter 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
Foreordained before casting down of a ordered system --- to be manifested. ------- Why?
1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

That is the sin (singular) of the world. IMHO. IMHO sin preceded the foundation of the world.

 

[Dave G]

On the day, Paul and ever how many were going down that road to Damascus, how many out of that group can we say for sure God was calling according to purpose?

Paul.

What purpose?

" And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose." ( Romans 8:28 ).

Was the purpose, salvation? Salvation for just that, one, we know of for sure?

Yes.
You asked about Paul, not anyone else.
He was the only one who saw the Lord.

No one else with him, did ( Acts of the Apostles 9:7 ), but they heard a voice.

Why out of that group, why only one believed?

" And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." ( Acts of the Apostles 13:48 ).

Why was it just Paul was able to see the light and reach down by his own accord and pull himself upright by his own faith and believe?

He didn't.

It is God who justifies ( Romans 4:5, Romans 8:30, Romans 8:32 ).
It was given to Paul in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe, but to suffer for His sake ( Philippians 1:29 ).

What's more, faith is but the substance of things hoped for, and the evidence of things not seen ( Hebrews 11:1 ).
By it the believer does many things and believes every word of God.

It is the gift of God ( Ephesians 2:8 ), authored and finished by Jesus Christ ( Hebrews 12:2 ).

Paul's faith did not acquire eternal life for him.
The Lord mercifully had compassion on Him and revealed Himself to Paul on the road to Damascus.

Isn't that what we in reality believe that Paul was the only one able to muster up the faith to be saved and or save himself?

No, I do not.

I believe that God credits our faith as righteousness, yet that very faith is a gift from God.
Yes, it's a wonderful contradiction ( ion the minds of many men ) that points everything back to the Lord and His choice to bestow His grace and mercy to whomsoever He wishes, and completely bypass the wishes of men.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

IMHO sin preceded the foundation of the world.

If sin preceded the foundation of the world, God would nor have called it 'very good' when it was completed.
Romans 5:12. 'Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world.......' The one man was Adam. He did not precede the foundation of the world.

 

[percho]

If sin preceded the foundation of the world, God would nor have called it 'very good' when it was completed.
Romans 5:12. 'Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world.......' The one man was Adam. He did not precede the foundation of the world.

What about the sin of 1 John 3:8? The sin of the devil. Where was the devil before the foundation of the world, during the foundation of the world and the first minutes unto hours unto days unto weeks unto years following God resting on the seventh day? What was the devil doing in the garden of God, Eden?

So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. Gen 3:24

What about the devil? Where did he go?

How was the Son of God, going to be manifested to destroy the works of the devil, had God not created man in his own image?

When was there war in heaven? Before or after man was created? Did the devil have the power of, the death, before man was created? see Heb 2:14 for the devil having that power.

Did the sin of the devil precede the creation of man?

Was God out to get man by putting the man in the Garden he planted or was God out to get the devil by putting man in the garden?

 

[Dave G]

What about the sin of 1 John 3:8? The sin of the devil. Where was the devil before the foundation of the world, during the foundation of the world and the first minutes unto hours unto days unto weeks unto years following God resting on the seventh day? What was the devil doing in the garden of God, Eden?

If you look carefully, God created it all "very good".
Heaven and all in it were created on the second day according to Genesis 1:6-8.

But because God stated that it was all "very good" on the 6th day ( Genesis 1:31 ), then there was no sin in Creation until after that.
The way I see it, the sin of the Devil had to have happened on or after the 8th day, which was after the Lord declared it all as "very good" and rested on the 7th day.

The same for man's sin and the casting down of Lucifer and the rebellious angels to earth.

 

[percho]

If you look carefully, God created it all "very good".
Heaven and all in it were created on the second day according to Genesis 1:6-8.

But because God stated that it was all "very good" on the 6th day ( Genesis 1:31 ), then there was no sin in Creation until after that.
The way I see it, the sin of the Devil had to have happened on or after the 8th day, which was after the Lord declared it all as "very good" and rested on the 7th day.

The same for man's sin and the casting down of Lucifer and the rebellious angels to earth.

From Heb 2:14 YLT that through death he might destroy him having the power of death -- that is, the devil --

How is the devil destroyed and or brought to naught and or rendered powerless and or annulled, through, the death, of Jesus born of woman, the manifested as man Son of God?

Was there any other way than, through the death, that the devil could be, your choice of the above?

Once the devil became a sinner, from beginning, whether on the 8th day or later or even before the foundation of the world as I believe, was, the death of the manifested Son of God, absolutely necessary for the devil being brought to naught?

Consider; Through, the death, the spiritual devil is brought to naught while at the same time, through, the death, the flesh and blood man is redeemed from sin and death, and that redemption was foreordained before the foundation of the world.

The very good Adam was created to being sin and death to man otherwise the devil could never be brought to naught.







.

 

[Dave G]

How is the devil destroyed and or brought to naught and or rendered powerless and or annulled, through, the death, of Jesus born of woman, the manifested as man Son of God?

It was through Christ's death ( not by it ) that Jesus destroyed the works of the Devil.
The Devil was rendered powerless by Jesus Christ, and that being rendered powerless is transferred to the believer.

" Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage." ( Hebrews 2:14-15 ).

What was it about Christ's death that destroyed the Devil?
His resurrection.
The Devil has been given the power of death, and Jesus Christ has defeated that power.

Also, believers are not delivered from death, but the fear of death.
See 1 Corinthians 15:54, 2 Timothy 1:10.
We then take part in His resurrection when we partake of the first resurrection, which is the resurrection unto life eternal.

Therefore, we also partake in our Saviour's victory over death, when we are resurrected and go to be with Him.

Was there any other way than, through the death, that the devil could be, your choice of the above?

No.

Once the devil became a sinner, from beginning, whether on the 8th day or later or even before the foundation of the world as I believe, was, the death of the manifested Son of God, absolutely necessary for the devil being brought to naught?

Yes.
There was only one way the Devil could be rendered powerless...

It was to have that power shown to be pointless.

Consider; Through, the death, the spiritual devil is brought to naught while at the same time, through, the death, the flesh and blood man is redeemed from sin and death, and that redemption was foreordained before the foundation of the world.

Agreed.

The very good Adam was created to being sin and death to man otherwise the devil could never be brought to naught.

To bring sin and death to man, otherwise the devil could never be brought to nought?

I'd need to see that Scripture to be convinced.
Otherwise, let's not go beyond what is written.

 

[kyredneck]

So my conclusion is that it is not possible to give a blanket definition of world, or even of kosmos. The context of each occurrence must be studied to provide the right answer.

Your conclusion equates to confusion. Just how many differing definitions do you assign to John's use of kosmos? Let the scripture define itself:

20 Jesus answered him, I have spoken openly to the world; I ever taught in synagogues, and in the temple, where all the Jews come together; and in secret spake I nothing. Jn 18

It means the same throughout the gospel of John (and James), kosmos = the old covenant arrangement, the arrangement at that time.

The 'old covenant arrangement', it fits fine in all the passages from John (and James).

 

[timtofly]

When I first read this I thought I might print out all the usages of 'world' in John's corpus and see what conclusions one might draw, but I find that
1. Kosmos is used 68 times in John's Gospel, 20 times in 1 John, once in 2 John 7 and three times in Revelation (11:15; 13:8; 16:14).
2. Aionos is used in John 9:22.
3. Oikoumene is used three times in Revelation (3:10; 12:9; 16:4).
4. Ge is used in Revelation 13:3.

Let's just take one verse: John 1:10. 'He was in the world, and the world was made by Him, and the world did not know Him.' I take the first two usages to mean Planet Earth; I don't see that anything else fits. The third usage seems to me to mean the world as it stands apart from God; the world we are not to love (1 John 2:15-17). It obviously does not mean Planet Earth; nor does it mean all the people in the earth since in verse 12 we are told that some did receive Him. Nor, obviously, does it mean the elect.

So my conclusion is that it is not possible to give a blanket definition of world, or even of kosmos. The context of each occurrence must be studied to provide the right answer. I have heard Don Carson speak many times (more, I think, than any other 'famous Christian') and read several of his books. I am not an unreserved fan, but he's right that the love of God is a difficult doctrine.

That is because the world is the center of reality. There is no 14 billion light year across universe. The world is the cosmos. Heaven where the stars are, is only the same size as this earth we live on. Technically stars are angels. There is a third are, what is below the earth. So this world is exactly the cosmos. God's plan involved a finite 8 thousand year experience, where the sins of God would be supplanted by Adam's fallen descendants for 6000 years before all would be restored. Noah’s days the sons of God were turned into ungodly humans.

Today the US, the last hope for Christians and the church, has realized the same condition as the sinful sons of God.

It it also the end of Adam's 6000 year punishment of work. We do so love our work. We do not want it to end, but God says it must end. Only those foolish enough to keep working will get the expiration date permanently branded on their foreheads 666. Then those so proud in Solidarity with Satan will tattoo it on their hands. But this does not have to happen. The church can repent and make straight the path of The Lamb's Return. God is not willing that any should Perish, but that all should be saved. The whole cosmos is what God loved and made an Atonement for. The angels cannot return, but humanity still has a choice to turn to God, and be saved.

 

[timtofly]

I have a question. Maybe more than one.

For God so loved the world.

On the day, Paul and ever how many were going down that road to Damascus, how many out of that group can we say for sure God was calling according to purpose?

What purpose?
Was the purpose, salvation? Salvation for just that, one, we know of for sure?
Why out of that group, why only one believed?
Why was it just Paul was able to see the light and reach down by his own accord and pull himself upright by his own faith and believe? Isn't that what we in reality believe that Paul was the only one able to muster up the faith to be saved and or save himself?

Paul was the 12th disciple, apostle. Only God can apoint one called to be one of the elders in heaven. They were the ones chosen for a special task. It was not salvation but leadership. The only hierarchy neccessary after a local shepherd of a local flock. Now a shepherd can best handle 50, as Jethro pointed out to Moses, that one human cannot do it alone.

In fact in the local church, under shepherds that a church has faith in God, who will provide, allows the church to grow. Those helpers themselves bring more to the flock. Either a church in faith adds more leaders, or if there is a boom in membership more leaders are necessary, or the added members may drift back away. Finding like minded men of God is the most difficult point in this time period. There are too many winds of unreliable doctrine, theology, and confusion.

God's call to Paul led to both his salvation and his call to be one of God’s apostles.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Your conclusion equates to confusion. Just how many differing definitions do you assign to John's use of kosmos? Let the scripture define itself:

20 Jesus answered him, I have spoken openly to the world; I ever taught in synagogues, and in the temple, where all the Jews come together; and in secret spake I nothing. Jn 18

It means the same throughout the gospel of John (and James), kosmos = the old covenant arrangement, the arrangement at that time.

The 'old covenant arrangement', it fits fine in all the passages from John (and James).

'Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.' Did the Lord Jesus take away the sin of the 'old covenant arrangement at that time'?

 

[kyredneck]

'Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.' Did the Lord Jesus take away the sin of the 'old covenant arrangement at that time'?

Yes. I don't see a problem. Explain.

 

[Van]

Yes. I don't see a problem. Explain.

No, of course not. Anyone and everyone that God places in Christ on the basis of crediting their faith as righteousness has their sin removed at the time of being put into Christ, and not before.

 

[kyredneck]

No, of course not. Anyone and everyone that God places in Christ on the basis of crediting their faith as righteousness has their sin removed at the time of being put into Christ, and not before.

You're doing the same as Martin I think, seeing [only] a spiritual/eternal application when there's also a practical/immediate temporal one, Jn 3:16 included.

29 On the morrow he seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold, the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sin of the world! Jn 1

8 And he, when he is come, will convict the world in respect of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Jn 16

Same 'world'.

 

[Van]

You're doing the same as Martin I think, seeing [only] a spiritual/eternal application when there's also a practical/immediate temporal one, Jn 3:16 included.

29 On the morrow he seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold, the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sin of the world! Jn 1

8 And he, when he is come, will convict the world in respect of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Jn 16

Same 'world'.

Yes, world refers to mankind. When any individual's sins are removed, that removes "the sin of the world" not all but a small portion. And please do not disparage me with generalizations (same thing as Martin) without providing a quote. And the portion of sin removed from the world was not removed when Christ died, but rather when that individual was placed in Christ.

 

[timtofly]

No, of course not. Anyone and everyone that God places in Christ on the basis of crediting their faith as righteousness has their sin removed at the time of being put into Christ, and not before.

When the Lamb was on the cross, that was, the point their sin was removed. God says that also happened before the world was created. Time does not matter to God. How did John the Baptist know Jesus was the Lamb of God? God told him.

You cannot remove what does not exist. If you say that God only removes each time a person is saved, is that when they die? Death is the only way to remove sin.

If not, you preach the false gospel of sinless perfection. That humans can no longer sin any more, if sin is removed from their reality in the world.

 

[Van]

When the Lamb was on the cross, that was, the point their sin was removed. God says that also happened before the world was created. Time does not matter to God. How did John the Baptist know Jesus was the Lamb of God? God told him.

You cannot remove what does not exist. If you say that God only removes each time a person is saved, is that when they die? Death is the only way to remove sin.

If not, you preach the false gospel of sinless perfection. That humans can no longer sin any more, if sin is removed from their reality in the world.

Folks, did you see any scripture cited to support this false doctrine? Neither did I.
Sin was not removed from anyone when Christ died. Sin is removed from those placed in Christ by the circumcision of Christ, Colossians 2:11
Sin did not enter mankind before creation, Romans 5:12
The sequence given in scripture is valid, the rearrangement of events by claiming "time does not matter to God" is yet another effort to make scripture to no effect.
The fact God reveals to to individuals such as John the Baptist is not in dispute, so deflection.
I do not say God only removes sin when a person is placed "in Christ." God does! Colossians 2:11.

 

[kyredneck]

“The Scriptures are to be taken in the sense attached to them in the age and by the people to whom they were addressed.” Charles Hodge

Yes, world refers to mankind.

14 And afterward he was manifested unto the eleven ...
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world … Mk 16

Ponder this:

34 And Peter opened his mouth and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 but in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is acceptable to him. Acts 10

2 And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him,
3 saying, Thou wentest in to men uncircumcised, and didst eat with them. Acts 11

Peter was called onto the carpet to explain his actions for preaching to the Gentiles. It's evident that 'go unto all the kosmos' did not include non-Jews to the eleven. They were still following the earlier charge:

5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and charged them, saying, Go not into any way of the Gentiles, and enter not into any city of the Samaritans:
6 but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Mt 10

It required Divine intervention through visions (Acts 10) to Cornelius and Peter to begin the joining of the two folds [John 10:16].

 

[Van]

“The Scriptures are to be taken in the sense attached to them in the age and by the people to whom they were addressed.” Charles Hodge

14 And afterward he was manifested unto the eleven ...
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world … Mk 16

Ponder this:

34 And Peter opened his mouth and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 but in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is acceptable to him. Acts 10

2 And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him,
3 saying, Thou wentest in to men uncircumcised, and didst eat with them. Acts 11

Peter was called onto the carpet to explain his actions for preaching to the Gentiles. It's evident that 'go unto all the kosmos' did not include non-Jews to the eleven. They were still following the earlier charge:

5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and charged them, saying, Go not into any way of the Gentiles, and enter not into any city of the Samaritans:
6 but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Mt 10

It required Divine intervention through visions (Acts 10) to Cornelius and Peter to begin the joining of the two folds [John 10:16].

I am not sure what your point is, Sir.

Here is what I posted:

Yes, world refers to mankind. When any individual's sins are removed, that removes "the sin of the world" not all but a small portion. And please do not disparage me with generalizations (same thing as Martin) without providing a quote. And the portion of sin removed from the world was not removed when Christ died, but rather when that individual was placed in Christ.

1: Are you claiming John did not almost exclusive use "world" to refer to mankind or the corrupt value system of mankind? If so, say so, and support it from the writings of John, not Matthew, Mark and Luke.

2. The Greek word, translated "world" had a range of meanings, but in John, the intended meaning was almost always mankind.

3. Jesus said to go to all nations (which refers to both Jews and Gentiles) so Peter was not wrong, just ahead of the understanding of Jewish believers.

Lets look at the three places in Mark where "world" appears:

Mark 8:36
“For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world, and forfeit his soul?

Mark 14:9
“Truly I say to you, wherever the gospel is preached in the whole world, what this woman has done will also be spoken of in memory of her.”

Mark16:15
And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.

In Mark 8:36, world refers to all the worldly treasure of the world, in Mark 14:9 world refers to mankind (you do not preach to rocks) and in Mark 16:15 again refers to mankind or mankind's location.​