The False Doctrine of the Immortality of the Soul..

[Hobie]

The state of the dead or what happens when we die. We see the first lie Satan told was in the Garden of Eden.

Genesis 3:4 King James Version (KJV)
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Man is not immortal, only God has immortality...

1 Timothy 6:16 King James Version (KJV)
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Let look further ..
1 Timothy 1:17 King James Version (KJV)
17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Scripture reveals that the eternal God is immortal. In fact, He alone has immortality. He is uncreated, self-existent, and has no beginning and no end. The Scriptures nowhere describe immortality as a quality or state that man—or his 'soul' or 'spirit'—possesses inherently. The terms usually rendered 'soul' and 'spirit'. . . in the Bible occur over a thousand times, but never in association with the words 'immortal' or 'immortality'".

Man was never meant to die, but death came into the world as a consequence of sin.

Romans 6:23 King James Version (KJV)
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Hobie]

Here is a great explanation and well put together understanding by a poster on one of the sites of this topic:

Premise

Traditionally most people believe that there is a ghost-like “spirit” inside of our bodies, and when we die, this spirit floats away somewhere, preferably heaven.

I will show that the Bible actually does not support this theory. In fact, according to the Bible there is no spirit inside of us at all. We exist only as mortal bodies, made from dust having been given the breath of life. And it is this “breath of life” that is confused with, or interpreted as, a “spirit”.


What Happens When We Die

Scripture says it plainly.

Genesis 3:19
By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”

Job 7:21
Why then do you not pardon my transgression and take away my iniquity? For now I will lie down in the dust; And You will seek me, but I will not be."

Job 14:10:12
But man dies and lies prostrate man expires, and where is he? "As water evaporates from the sea, and a river becomes parched and dried up, so man lies down and does not rise. Until the heavens are no longer, he will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep.

Psalm 115:17
The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence.

Psalm 146:4
When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.

Ecclesiastes 3:19-20
For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return.

Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing

Over and over again the Bible says that the dead know nothing. These are only a few examples. The dead don’t think. They don’t praise the Lord. They have no consciousness. They return to the earth, as dust. Their plans perish and they cease to exist. Ecclesiastes 3 even tells us that man has no advantage over the beasts. All go to one place, which is dust.


Death Compared to Sleep

Psalms 13:3
Consider and answer me, O LORD my God; Enlighten my eyes, or I will sleep the sleep of death,

1 Kings 2:10
Then David slept with his fathers and was buried in the city of David.

When Lazarus died, Jesus said he was sleeping.
John 11:11-14

After he had said this, he went on to tell them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.” 12 His disciples replied, “Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.” 13 Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep. 14 So then he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead


Why would Jesus compare Lazarus’ death to “sleep” if Lazarus’ spirit has ascended into heaven? And why was there no mention of his spirit leaving his body?

Matthew 9:24
He said, "Leave; for the girl has not died, but is asleep." And they began laughing at Him.

Daniel 12:2
Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

Daniel was told he would “rest” until the resurrection.

Daniel 12:13
As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.”

If Daniel’s spirit was to go to heaven after death, then why was he told that he would rest? Why did the angel not say instead, I’ll see you in heaven soon, or something to that effect? It’s because Daniel wasn’t going to heaven. He was going to the dust of the earth. Daniel is now dead. He is not in heaven. He’s dead in the dust of the earth and on the day of the resurrection, he will rise, along with the rest of us.


What Happens When we are Resurrected

The resurrection, as Paul describes it, actually also proves that we have no spirit in us that goes to heaven when we die.

Imagine if we did have a spirit. We would fly up to heaven and we would do whatever we do in heaven. Praise the Lord, play Frisbee, eat BBQ chicken. No matter how you envision an existence in heaven, it would require at the very least that we have a consciousness, a thought process and a free will to continue to make decisions. All of this would contradict the old testament verses above.


It would also contradict the new testament book of 1 Corinthians, because according to Paul this life in a spiritual body, which we imagine in heaven, does not come to us until the very last day, when we are resurrected.

1 Corinthians 15:42
So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

1 Corinthians 15:46
The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven.

Paul clearly states that we are created with a natural body, not a spiritual body. We will be transformed into a spiritual body upon the resurrection. “The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual”. In other words, when God created us, we were not given spiritual bodies, only natural bodies, but we would receive spiritual bodies later, upon the resurrection.

Our bodies are sewn natural, raised spiritual. This is the point of the resurrection, to make us spiritual so that we can be immortal. So if you believe that we already have immortal spirits that leave our bodies when we die, you have a conundrum......

 

[Hobie]

...The Spiritual Conundrum

Imagine the traditional teaching, where we have a spirit and we go to heaven as a spirit when we die. Then please tell me, what is the point of the resurrection?

If we are already in heaven, as immortal spirits, then why would we need to be transformed into spirits on the last day? If it is so, then when our bodies on earth are transformed into spirits, do we end up with two spirits? The one in heaven and the one on earth? Would both spirits have their own separate consciousness? Do our spirits in heaven then join our old bodies which have been transformed? Would we then be a spirit within a spirit? Two spirits? What nonsense!

If we’re being transformed into spirits, then we can not already be spirits, otherwise what would be the point? The point of the resurrection is to make us immortal. To make us spirits. This would be entirely nonsensical if we are already living as spirits in heaven, and this is how Paul’s description of the resurrection proves that we do not have a spirit inside of us that continues to live after death.


Soul (Nephesh)

To add to the confusion, in addition to the obvious body and the presumed spirit, we also supposedly possess a “soul”. What is a soul? You are a soul.

Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Notice in the verse above that man became a living soul. He was not given a soul. He became a soul. In other words, we do not have souls, we are souls.

The word soul in this verse was originally written in Hebrew as לְנֶ֥
פֶשׁ which is transliterated as nephesh. Strong’s concordance defines nephesh as “a soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion”. With this definition in mind, the last part of Genesis 2:7 can be paraphrased as, for example “man became alive” or “man became an individual”. It is in fact the very moment when man gained his self awareness and free will.

The same word occurs 754 times in the old testament, so we can’t look at all examples but let’s look at one more.

Genesis 1:20
And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life (Nephesh), and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

Here the King James Bible translates it as “creature that hath life”. Remember, this is the same word that was translated as “soul” in Genesis 2:7. The more examples you look at the more obvious it becomes that when the word “soul” is used in scripture it refers simply to “a living creature”.

So keep in mind the true meaning of the word Nephesh, which can be translated as soul, living creature, person or individual, when you read verses such as…

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul who sins shall die.

The living creature who sins…

The person who sins…

The individual who sins…


The Spirit (Ruach)

On the flip side, there are a number of verses that can be used to support the notion that we all have a spirit inside of us that continues to live after the body dies. And at first glance, some of these verses are very convincing.

For example

Ecclesiastes 12:7
the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

2 Corinthians 5:8
Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

James 2:26
For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

Obviously, the key to understanding such verses is understanding the meaning of “spirit”. As it turns out, in these examples, the word spirit refers to the breath of God, which is life.

Ecclesiastes 12:7
the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

This verse seems to imply that our spirit goes up to heaven when we die, but actually “spirit” here refers to the life that God breathed into man in Genesis 2:7. It’s the life that returns to God, because the life came from God.

Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The word used through the old testament for spirit is the Hebrew word Ruach ר֫וּחַ, which can also be translated as “breath or wind”. In fact, this is how it is translated in various other verses including Genesis 7:15 and Psalm 104:29.

Genesis 7:15
Pairs of all creatures that have the breath of life (ruach) in them came to Noah and entered the ark.

Psalm 104:29
When you hide your face, they are terrified; when you take away their breath (ruach), they die and return to the dust.

When God gave man life, it was his breath/wind/spirit which God gave. The spirit of God is life. And it’s this spirit, this life, that returns to God in Ecclesiastes 12:7

Ecclesiastes 12:7
the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit (ruach – life / breath) returns to God who gave it.

Other verses clearly explain that it is the spirit of God, or the breath of God, that has given us life.

John 6:63 says The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you--they are full of the Spirit and life.

Job 33:4 says The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.

 

[Hobie]

The many Hebrew names of God in fact include the word Ruach each time.

English Name | Hebrew Name

The Spirit of God | Ruach Elohim

The Spirit of the Lord | Ruach Adonai

The Holy Spirit | Ruach Hakkodesh

The Spirit of the Lord God | Ruach Adonai Elohim

The Spirit of God | Ruach-El

Clearly, the word Ruach does not refer to a ghostly spirit that lives inside each of us, but rather the breath of life which came from God himself, and which is a part of God himself. Let’s look at the verse again.

Ecclesiastes 12:7
the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit (breath of life) returns to God who gave it.

And now compare that to the verse that describes man becoming a living creature.

Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

In other words, God gave his living spirit (Ruach) and man became a living soul (Nephesh).


When Jesus Died

When this discussion of a spirit comes up people often point to references around Jesus’ death on the cross as proof that his “spirit” left him.

Luke 23:46
And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, "Father, 'into Your hands I commit My spirit.'" Having said this, He breathed His last.

Matthew 27:50
And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.

John 19:30
So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

I used to think, as most people do, that each reference to “spirit” in these verses referred to a conscious ghostly entity that left Jesus’ body and floated up to heaven (or hell, depending on who you ask) where Jesus continued to “live”. However, if we look at the original Greek word used we get an entirely different picture.

Remember, the Hebrew word translated as spirit in the old testament is Ruach and it means “breath” or “wind”. In the new testament the original text is Greek and in each of these three verses above, the word translated as spirit is the Greek word “Pneuma”. Pneuma means “wind, breath, spirit”. It has the exact same meaning as the Hebrew Ruach. Go figure.

Also remember that in Genesis 2:7 God created man and gave man the breath of life. That god given breath is not just a simple breath that we take for granted; it is life. So if we understand that the Greek meaning of the word “pneuma” is actually a reference to life itself which God breathed into us, these verses suddenly take on a whole new meaning.

Luke 23:46
And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, "Father, 'into Your hands I commit My spirit life.'" Having said this, He breathed His last.

Matthew 27:50
And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit life.

John 19:30
So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit life.


Of course, looking back at it now, it seems so obvious that Jesus did not continue to live in spirit form after his death, because if that were the case he wouldn’t have really died. But he actually did die. He really died. The breath of life left him and he died.

There is literally no Bible verse that claims there is a ghostly spirit inside each of us that lives on after death. In fact, quite the opposite. All indications are that when we die, we return to the dust of the earth, without any consciousness, knowing nothing and realizing nothing. And it’s only at the resurrection, when the breath of God returns to us, that we become spiritual creatures.

Further Evidence

Acts 2:29
Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day”

Acts 2:34
For David is not ascended into the heavens

John 5:28-29
Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth

John 3:13
And no man has ascended up to heaven

 

[Hobie]

And here is even more from my buddy Palehorse..While speaking to His disciples about Lazarus, Jesus said:

Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go that I may awake him out of sleep. Then said his disciples, if he sleep he shall do well. Howbeit, Jesus spoke of his death; but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. John 11:11-14

The disciples were confused and thought Christ meant natural sleep, but He meant the sleep of death.
On His arrival Jesus found that Lazarus had already been four days in the tomb. John 11:17

While conversing with Martha, He tried to comfort her by saying,
'Thy brother shall rise again.' Martha saith unto him, 'I know that He shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.' John 11:23,24

Martha knew that life would be restored to Lazarus only in the resurrection at the last day. Jesus demonstrated through the resurrection of Lazarus that He was the One who could resurrect the dead according to His claim:

I am the resurrection and the life. John 11:25

The Scriptures in both Old and New Testaments are very clear on this issue. Life to the dead will be restored in the resurrection on the last day. (1 Corinthians 15:51-55, Job 19:25-26; Job 14:10-15; Psalm 17:15; Daniel 12:13) There will be separate resurrections for the righteous and for the wicked. John 5:28-29 states:

Marvel not at this; for the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil unto the resurrection of damnation.
For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ shall rise first.1 Thessalonians 4:16 NKJV

But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Revelation 20:5 NKJV

That same voice that raised Lazarus from the grave will be heard on that last day of this world's history, calling forth those who have slept in the graves of the earth. Christ will recreate the righteous dead, or "dead in Christ", and breathe into them the breath of eternal life, and they shall enter Heaven.

Revelation 20:6:
Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection.

When Jesus called Lazarus from the tomb,
...he cried with a loud voice, 'Lazarus, come forth'. John 11:43

That voice raised dead Lazarus to life. "He that was dead came forth", and Jesus said:
Loose him, and let him go. John 11:44

Nothing at all is stated about what transpired during those four days in which Lazarus was dead. Christ made no statement, neither did Martha or even Lazarus himself. The fact, of course, is that there was nothing to report about what happened after he died, no bright lights or gentle clouds or about the realm of the dead, simply because he had experienced the sleep of death which is a state of absolute silence and oblivion.

One of the most deceptive doctrines of the Evil one is the doctrine of the immortality of the soul. This doctrine more than any other opens the door to spurious views regarding the afterlife, and it has permeated the religious world with its false promises and claims. Moreover, it offers promises of multiple choices that can be made in terms of one’s salvation and multiple chances in terms of qualifying for salvation. Spiritism, reincarnation and necromancy (the worship and consulting of the dead) are only possible in the light of this doctrine. The Word of God is very clear on this issue. None of these doctrines and practices were to be tolerated by the people of God because they were all rooted in a false perception of death.

Most religions in the world today teach that death is the transition of one state of consciousness to another state of consciousness. They propose that physical man is subject to death, but that the "soul" continues to live, and is indeed immortal. According to this doctrine, the soul is a separate entity, and resides in the body of the living. To make matters even more confusing, most Christian denominations believe that this dichotomy is to be found only in humans, and that animals do not have souls.
The text of Genesis 2:7 clearly states that God breathed into the formed man the "breath of life" and man became a living soul. He did not receive a living soul; he became one. The New King James Bible states that "man became a living being". Of the many references to soul and spirit in the Bible, never once is either the soul or the Spirit declared to be immortal, imperishable or eternal. Indeed only God has immortality (1 Timothy 1:17; 6:16).

The doctrine of the immortality of the soul is a doctrine of false hope which negates the message of death. Moreover, if man continues to live, albeit in an altered state, then there is no need for a Saviour, or indeed the atoning death of Christ. Christ died to restore life to those who had forfeited it through sin.Job correlates the usage of breath and the spirit, saying:

All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils. Job 27:3

Moses reported that the breath of life was in Adam’s nostrils, whereas Job refers to both terms and says that the spirit of the Lord is “in my nostrils.” Hence, the Hebrew terms of "neshamah" and "rûach" are used here in a similar context - namely life itself!

 

[Hobie]

According to the Scriptures, all living creatures received life in the same way from God, and are subject to the same fate.

And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field . . . wherein is the breath of life. Genesis 2:19; 7:15

Both man and beast ...have all one breath, so that a man hath no preeminence above the beast. Ecclesiastes 3:19

Since man and beast have one breath, they also die the same way.

For that which befalleth the sons of men, befalleth beasts; ... as the one dieth, so dieth the other. Ecclesiastes 3:19.

Both man and animals were created from dust. So, when they die they then return again to dust; just the reverse of creation.

...for dust thou art and unto dust shalt thou return. Genesis 3:19

The second thing which happens when a man dies, is that the spirit, or breath of life, returns to God;

...and the spirit shall return unto God, who gave it. Ecclesiastes 12:7

Man was never meant to die, but death came into the world as a consequence of sin.

For the wages of sin is death. Romans 6:23

As death is non-life, it merely means that God takes the life ("rûach" spirit, breath) that He granted on condition of obedience back and man ceases to live. It is the life that was given that returns to God, and not a transformed version of man in the form a spirit being. When God said that man would "surely die" (Genesis 2:17) if he transgressed God's requirements, He meant that man would cease to live, and would return to dust.

Far from being a conscious state, death is thus the ultimate state of non-being or unconsciousness, and is described as such in the Scriptures.

His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. Psalms 146:4

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything. Ecclesiastes 9:5

The dead are oblivious to what is happening on earth they know nothing.

Also their love, and their hatred and their envy is now perished. Ecclesiastes 9:6

For in death there is no remembrance of You; in the grave who will give you thanks? Psalm 6:5

So their feelings perish also.
The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence. Psalms 115: 17

This state of unconsciousness is equated with sleep. Job says,

So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more; they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. Job 14:12

Man lies in the sleep of death until the resurrection at the end of time. Then, and only then, will he awake and be raised out of sleep.

 

[Hobie]

First let me say, for the sake of ease and clarity, this essay is by no means exhaustive in nature. By that I mean I have not given every single example found in the Bible to support the following questions and arguments; I have included the ones I feel best explain each section. I could literally write a book if I wanted to show every example for this study but it is unnecessary for the plain teaching of the Bible on this topic is very clear. However, I will address the arguments I’ve heard that are in favor of the “immortal soul” and the teaching of going to heaven/hell immediately following death near the end of this paper. As such, this has become a fairly long essay. But it is vital that people understand the relationship between what happens to us at death and how that ties into our going to hell or heaven. I could have made this essay much shorter simply by doing a breakdown of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (which is included herein) but I wanted to make sure that there was not room for doubt or error by comparing many verses together to ensure we have a solid picture of what the scriptures actually teach on this topic. This is my personal study, as such, please forgive any spelling/grammatical errors I've made.

To answer the question of the state of the dead, we must first define what the Bible says a soul is:

How was man created?
Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Man was not given a soul – he became a living soul. Don't miss that. “Soul” and “spirit” are not the same thing. It is the unity of body and breath-of-life that constitute the soul. You ARE a soul; you do not HAVE a soul. It is sad that an educated clergy gets this part wrong in most churches, and in doing so, the rest of what happens after we die gets distorted based off this first failing step.

For those that are mathematically minded, the idea can be expressed as such:
Physical body (dust) + breath of life (spirit - ruwach) = living soul (a wholism of the two - nephesh)

The Hebrew word for soul is"nephesh". Nephesh was translated into many different English words for the KJV Bible (for instance; creature, beast, man, fish, thing, person or persons, etc) but an important thing one should plainly see is that none of the translations refer to it as being something that survives the death of the body nor does it mean that in the original Hebrew. It was used to describe the "wholism" of life - not a "dualism" as was latter taught by the Greeks (Plato to be precise) and is unfortunately with us still today.

The Hebrew word for spirit is "ruwach". This word means breath or air and these terms are used interchangeably. The Hebrew word “ruwach” appears 377 times in the Bible; 117 times translated as wind/air, 33 times as breath, and 227 times as spirit. There is no indication that there is any memory, consciousness, ego, or character associated with it in ANY of the verses. Also, there is no implication that it is immortal. Check it out for yourself if you have any doubts.

Can/does the soul die?
Ezekial 18:4 - Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Ezekiel 18:20 - The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Revelation 16:3 - And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
Genesis 3:19 - In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Ecclesiastes 3:19 & 20 - For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

These five verses show the same equation (if you will), in reverse:

Physical body (dust) – breath of life (spirit) = death (the ceasing of the two)


Let’s verify that the “breath of life” equates to the spirit:
Genesis 7:22 - All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
Job 27:3 - All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;
Isaiah 2:22 - Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of?
What is in the nostrils? Some immortal memory-retaining substance? No, figuratively and literally it is the breath.

As you can see, the breath of life and the spirit are one and the same and are used interchangeably. Does the spirit have thoughts or memory?
Ecclesiastes 9:5 - For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Job 12:2 - No doubt but ye are the people, and wisdom shall die with you.

So, the spirit (breath - ruwach) that returns to God at death is not mentioned as being immortal nor does it contain any memory or information of the individual or any conscience whatsoever. In fact, just the opposite has been seen; the dead don’t know anything nor can they gain any further reward towards heaven.

 

[Hobie]

Who is/has immortality now?
1 Timothy 6:15 & 16 - Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
1 Timothy 1:17 - Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Deuteronomy 33:27 - The eternal God is thy refuge, ...

ONLY God has immortality right now, 1 Timothy 6:15 & 16 makes that abundantly clear. The question is can humans achieve it, and if so, how?
Mark 10:17 - And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
Luke 10:25 - And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
Luke 18:18 - And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

Notice, the questions in the verses above talk about inheriting eternal life – that is a future tense event not a current one. They were asking what they had to do to inherit eternal life; which also says they didn't already have it. So, what did they, and we, have to do to inherit eternal life?

John 3:15 - That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 17:2 - As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
1 Timothy 6:19 - Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.
John 10:28 - And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Again we find that eternal life is a future event but it’s conditional; you must believe in Him.

Titus 3:7 - That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Heirs receive an inheritance.
Hebrews 9:15 - And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
1 John 5:11 - And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

These verses clearly show that eternal life is NOT an automatic thing – it is something that is hoped for, something that must be given by God or inherited from God.

So, if eternal life (either in heaven or hell) is not granted at death, then when is it?
John 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
1.Cor.15:52 which says, "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."
1 Cor 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Notice that all of these verses (and this is by no means all of the scriptural references) talk of a future event (His coming) in which the dead are raised. There is no mention of souls going to either heaven or hell immediately after death. That is a Hellenistic (pagan Greek teaching made popular by Plato) teaching that was introduced in the 400+ years between the writings of the Old and New Testaments. But the details of that are outside of the scope of this study.

So what does happen when we die?
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 - But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

If that verse doesn’t explain our position then nothing will. The Bible, not me, clearly likens death to “sleep” and calls it such many times. At the end of this study I’ll provide many more supporting scriptures for this fact. Also note; the dead in Christ ARE STILL HERE AND ALL THE RIGHTEOUS RISE AT THE SAME TIME. Christ descends from heaven and we rise to meet Him then; not before, not later, but at that moment. There is no second chance as is being taught by popular Christianity. That is a dangerous myth, a fable. But let me further prove that position....

 

[Yeshua1]

The state of the dead or what happens when we die. We see the first lie Satan told was in the Garden of Eden.

Genesis 3:4 King James Version (KJV)
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Man is not immortal, only God has immortality...

1 Timothy 6:16 King James Version (KJV)
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Let look further ..
1 Timothy 1:17 King James Version (KJV)
17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Scripture reveals that the eternal God is immortal. In fact, He alone has immortality. He is uncreated, self-existent, and has no beginning and no end. The Scriptures nowhere describe immortality as a quality or state that man—or his 'soul' or 'spirit'—possesses inherently. The terms usually rendered 'soul' and 'spirit'. . . in the Bible occur over a thousand times, but never in association with the words 'immortal' or 'immortality'".

Man was never meant to die, but death came into the world as a consequence of sin.

Romans 6:23 King James Version (KJV)
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Jesus went to Hades and proclaimed Himself as Lord during those 3 days before physical resurrection! he was alive outside the body!

 

[canadyjd]

Doesn’t Revelation tell us that the spirits of the saints are standing before God in heaven?

Doesn’t Paul tell us to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord?

peace to you

 

[Hobie]

Let’s look at the story of Lazarus (not the Parable of Lazarus, which we’ll look at near end of this study):
John 11:11-14 - These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. And then in verse 17 Jesus says of Lazarus: 17 Then when Jesus came, he found that he [Lazarus] had lain in the grave four days already.

We see that 1) Jesus equated death to sleep and used the terms interchangeably; and 2) in this story Lazarus has been dead for 4 days. Agreed? Now, let’s continue:
Verse 43-44: And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth. And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

Now, Lazarus had been dead for 4 days – if he had in fact gone to heaven (or hell) in any conscious form why is nothing told by Lazarus of this? Lazarus does not come back to life with any stories of where he was, what he saw, or anything. He doesn’t talk about walking on streets of gold nor burning with fire. After being resurrected he does speak – and all he says is a simple acknowledgement of who was standing there with Jesus.

Why doesn’t Lazarus have any such stories of an afterlife? The Bible tells us why:
Ecclesiastes 9:5 - For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Job 12:2 - No doubt but ye are the people, and wisdom shall die with you.

So, when do we get our reward?
Matthew 16:27 - For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Matthew 5:12 - Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
Matthew 6:1 - Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
Luke 6:23 - Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.
Revelation 22:12 - And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Notice that the “reward” comes when Jesus comes back – not before and not after. Nor does it make a lick of sense that if people were already in heaven that Jesus would send them back to earth to re-resurrect them. That would serve no purpose at all and the Bible simply does not teach that. That is a fairytale and I challenge anyone to produce any scripture in favor of that teaching.

Let’s look at Christ’s example on the cross and I’ll include the thief in this point since many cite this as a reason to believe that we go immediately to heaven or hell following death:
Luke 23:42, 43 - And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Luke 23:46 - And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
So, as we learned earlier the word “spirit” (ruach) simply means His breath. But now we’ll verify many of the things established in this paper:
1) Did Jesus ascend to heaven that day? No.
Remember, Jesus died on a Friday (day of preparation – Luke 23:54), laid dead in the sepulchre all of Saturday (Sabbath – again Luke 23:54), rose on Sunday, and
John 20:1 - The first day of the week (Sunday still) cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.
(Luke 24:21 further verifies it was three days)
John 20:17 - Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
Jesus was dead and rose on the third day and still had not yet ascended to heaven.
2) Did the thief die that day? No.
In fact, the Jews didn’t want anyone hanging on the cross during their Sabbath day so the Romans broke the legs of the thief and the other (neither of which had died yet) so that when they took the crosses down they wouldn’t run away (John 19:31-33).
3) Did the thief even ask to be taken to heaven that day? No. The thief knew his theology – what did he ask?
Luke 23:42, 43 - And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom...

The thief did not ask to be taken to heaven when he died but when Christ would return. This is very important to understand, don't miss it.

Never has the misplacement of a comma ever caused so much trouble. Remember, neither Greek nor Hebrew contains any form of punctuation nor capitalization – the translators put those in when they translated to English.
Is it possible they were swayed by a preconceived notion? Maybe so.
Are they “inspired” as the writers of the Bible were? No, certainly not.
Were they just being consistent? YES! Check it out; any time in the Bible where Jesus says “verily I say unto thee” there is always a comma immediately following the phrase. The translators were merely being consistent in their translation and I can't fault them for that - but this time it was at the expense of the true meaning of what Jesus actually said.
Am I wrong? Well let’s test that. Let's see if there are examples of misplaced commas in other places in the Bible just to see if this is possible:
Acts 19:12 - So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.
Now ask yourself, were the handkerchiefs sick? Did they have evil spirits in them? No. According to the way this sentence is written then they were, right? Doesn't it stand to reason that the comma is misplaced? I would think so.
Let’s see another example:

Genesis 16:1 - Now Sarai Abram's wife bare him no children: and she had an handmaid, an Egyptian, whose name was Hagar.
Was Sarai Abram his name? No. The commas are missing between the names – it should read “Now Sarai, Abrams’s wife, bare him…” There are many others – the point is that punctuation mistakes DID happen and the example of the thief on the cross is merely another one that can easily be corrected if people would correlate the meaning to the plain teachings found in the rest of the Bible. The Bible does not contradict itself but sometimes one must look a bit deeper than the surface to see that. There are other punctuation mistakes; check out 2 Peter 3:12 (it’s a statement, not a question) & Hebrews 4:8 (it’s a question, not a statement).

 

[Hobie]

Let’s get two more examples that further show people do not go to heaven or hell upon death:

2 Peter 2:9 - The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to RESERVE the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished.

Acts 2:29-34 - Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell (grave), neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

What Paul is saying here is simple and yet vital; David is still dead and buried and has not ascended to heaven even though David was promised to do so by God Himself. If David is not in heaven even years after his death (and with the promise from God) then what makes people think they will go to heaven immediately after death? The Bible simply does not teach that.

Job understood well what happens after death and how/when the resurrection takes place; let’s see what he says:
Job 14:10-14 - But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he? (yes, that is the very question at hand - where is he?) As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up: So man lieth down, and riseth not: 1) till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, 2) until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till 3) my change come.

I numbered those parts for a reason. When we break down the references of what he says here we find the following:

1. 2 Peter 3:10 - But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

2. Revelation 15:1-2 - And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3. 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 - Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
Here is another example of the sequence of events that occur; we experience death, get buried and stay there until Jesus returns, then we are raised up and given glorified bodies (if we are righteous), then we meet Christ in the air. It is very simple.

Lastly, let’s look at what Jesus Himself had to say about this:

John 14:1-3 - Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Was Christ lying? Has Christ come again yet and received us? No. If He had come then the world would have been utterly destroyed (see 2 Peter 3:10)

 

[Hobie]

Here is how it all comes together:

John 5:28-29 - Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

2 Timothy 4:6-8 - For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Here is the best verse to explain it:

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 - But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Basically, in today’s terms, here is what happens:

1. When we die we are truly dead; we know not anything, we do not praise God nor can we get any further reward; the body returns to the earth and the spirit/breath to God. Death is likened to sleep in the Bible over 23 times (*see last section of this paper). Some call it “sleeping in Christ” and some call it “soul sleep” – it doesn’t matter what you call it for it is what it is. “Sleeping in Christ” is just a poetic way of talking about the righteous that are dead – they are sleeping in Christ. And there is no mention anywhere in the scriptures that says the spirit is conscious, has memory, or is anything more than what it says it is - breath.

2. We get buried (usually – but it doesn’t matter to God how we are put to rest) and we stay there until Christ comes.

3. Now a split occurs when Christ returns; the righteous dead and living are called up in glorified bodies to meet Christ in the air to get our reward (eternal life) and the wicked dead stay in the graves and the wicked alive are slain at Christ's return (remember, there are TWO resurrections just as John 5:28-29, Dan12:2 and 1 Thess 4:16 states).

4. The alive wicked are slain by the Word of God and Satan is bound for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:2 & 3). After 1,000 years (known to some as the Millennium – see Rev 20:2-7) the righteous (saints) return to earth with Jesus and the wicked are resurrected in order to receive their judgment.

5. THAT is when the lake of fire is created and the wicked, along with Satan and with their sin, are destroyed for eternity (*see Rev 19:20 & Rev 20:10-15)

6. Then, and only then, is the new earth created for us for all eternity just as God’s plan originally meant for it to be (*see Isaiah 65:17, Isaiah 66:22, 2 Peter 3:13, and Revelation 21:1).

I'm not being hardheaded nor self-righteous; this is the clear truth of the Bible, God’s word to us and I have shown that it is repeated numerous times throughout the Bible. This is not the teaching of some denomination but only that of the Bible and the Bible alone. It bothers me that there are so many crazy theories out there in the Christian world about this topic; for if they just read the Bible themselves then there wouldn't be all this confusion and error. People would know that there isn't a secret rapture nor a seven-year tribulation after which people get a second chance (the concept of which totally negates living by faith by the way). I'll be blunt, you are either "right" with God when you die or else you are lost, period. I hate to sound hard-nosed but that is just the way it is. Doubt that? Read the next section carefully. I'll address purgatory first.

I'll address the arguments people use in favor of the immortal soul or that the soul goes immediately to heaven/hell after death.

By now you should note that anything even resembling purgatory simply does not exist in the Bible. It does not fit chronologically either. Catholics rely largely on "the pit" found in Revelation for this teaching but I think in doing so they overlook something; the fact that the Beast is there in chains for 1,000 years. Let's look at some of the key verses in Revelation 9 that talks about the pit - it is best if you read the entire chapter for yourselves though:

Revelation 9:1 - And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
Revelation 9:2 - And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
Revelation 9:11 - And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.
Revelation 11:7 - And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Revelation 20:1 - And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Revelation 20:3 - And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

A couple of things to note:

Abaddon (seen in Rev 9:11 above) is a Hebrew word meaning "the Destroyer" denoting the angel-prince of hell; also known as Satan; check your Concordance. Lucifer was/is an angel. This word is only used once in the scriptures. The above verses are talking about the ushering in, the time of, and the ending of the Millenium (see Rev 20:3). This isn't very hard to figure out - the bottomless pit is the earth (Rev 9:2 clues into that) at a time when Satan is the only one left alive on it. The judgement has not come yet (nor the lake of fire which is Hell as we know it) for that doesn't happen until Rev 19:20. Notice there is no mention of a place where people are tortured until they are "good enough" to then go on to heaven. Even the following terms (in their original Hebrew) never denoted the like:

Gehenna: was the place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch and was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem. When Jesus walked by it and saw the corpses in there He would tell his disciples "that is what the pit will be like" (paraphrase). Gehenna is only a figurative word for hell - not an actual. It generically means a place for the lost or unsaved, i.e. the damned. But here is the kicker - notice when it occurs - BEFORE the lake of fire during the 1,000 years that Satan is chained.

Sheol: simply means the grave, the place of burial. This word was translated "hell" but does not really mean "a place of everlasting fire" at all.

Conclusion: The notion of purgatory is totally alien to Biblical teaching. Purgatory is a uniquely Catholic teaching that has no Biblical support that I can find nor that makes sense when compared to the plain teaching of the scriptures.

 

[Hobie]

Doesn’t Revelation tell us that the spirits of the saints are standing before God in heaven?

Doesn’t Paul tell us to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord?

peace to you

I think you are talking about Revelation 9:6:
Revelation 6:9 - And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Need to keep in mind, when reading any prophetic book there is the highly figurative language being used. For instance, John also saw strange beasts coming out of the sea, a woman riding a ferocious beast, another woman clothed with the sun, etc. There is all kinds of imagery used in Revelation that is symbolic of a greater truth; the souls under the alter is no exception and hardly constitutes a reliable reference in which one should base a doctrine on.

We can also look at the following:

Genesis 4:9-10
9 And the Lord said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?
10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.

Is Abels blood really crying, of course not, again its figuratively.

Now as for the text from Paul, here is the verses from 2 Corinthians 5:1-8:

"1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." 2 Corinthians 5:1-8 King James Version (KJV)

Paul appears to many people to be saying that something better than our current lives, namely being in the presence of God, awaits us after death. The language he uses seems to imply that life after death exists apart from our bodies and will continue on in spiritual form. To understand what Paul is saying, we must look at the comparison of being clothed as we go through the verses.

Paul introduces an earthly house and a heavenly house in verse 1, and in verse 2 states our condition while in the earthly house. He tells us in verse 2 and 3 what we desire in that state, to be "clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:" and "If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked". Paul in verse 4 then states the result of being clothed with the house from heaven. Now in verse 5 he says God "hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit", with "earnest" meaning a assurance or pledge. So the Spirit is pledge that mortality shall eventually be swallowed up of life. Verse 6, Paul states the grounds of his confidence, and verse 7 how a Christian should live. In verse 8, Paul just repeats a willingness to be absent from the body and to be with the Lord.

Paul uses clothing metaphors, and likens our existing mortal bodies with an “earthly house" or tent, and says we should not worry if it is destroyed because we have a “building from God” that awaits us. It doesn't say we will be in God’s presence without a body; rather, Paul simply says we will not have this body. As we read in verse 4, Paul specifically says he does not want to be "unclothed" (without a body), but rather further clothed (or different body). We currently wear a mortal body, but in God’s presence after the resurrection we “must put on” an immortal one.

So Paul is saying he prefers to be absent from the body (or corrupted mortal one) and present with the Lord (clothed in his changed one) which we find is after the resurrection. When we stand in God’s presence, we will not be in the same body we have now. The house from heaven is “eternal” or immortal and represents the state of immortality that awaits the redeemed beyond the resurrection. Here is 1 Corinthians 15:51-53...

"51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." 1 Corinthians 15:51-53 King James Version (KJV)

 

[Hobie]

Jesus went to Hades and proclaimed Himself as Lord during those 3 days before physical resurrection! he was alive outside the body!

I don't think any true believer believes that Christ went to hell. If you look in context, it was the Holy Spirit that quickened or had a part in the resurrection. Peter was not telling us about a mystical spirit ministry at the death of Christ at all. In the context of his statement, it is clearly seen that the whole reason Peter referred to the flood was to tell us that the resurrection is our only hope of Salvation just like the Ark was for the Antediluvians. To demonstrate our faith that Jesus was raised from the dead, and that we believed He also had power to raise us from the dead, we were to be baptized:

Romans 6:3,5 King James Version (KJV)
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?...
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

 

[canadyjd]

Thanks for the conversation

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

When Jesus was transfigured, wasn’t He talking to Moses and Elijah?

peace to you

 

[Hobie]

When Jesus was transfigured, wasn’t He talking to Moses and Elijah?

peace to you

Excellent question, now consider this text on Elijah:

2 Kings 2:11 King James Version (KJV)
11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

Elijah is representative of those saints who will be alive at the second coming:

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 King James Version (KJV)
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord

Moses is representative of the resurrected saints or 'dead in Christ' that will be brought up bodily from the grave.

Jude 9 King James Version (KJV)
9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

 

[timtofly]

The issue is mixing what happened to the dead before and after the cross. You did not mention that all OT Saints came out of hell and their graves at the same moment Jesus said it is finished. They had to wait until the sting of death was gone. They were in corruption in Abraham's bosom. This was a separate place from the dead who died in their own sins.

Those souls in Abraham's bosom are now under the alter Revelation 6:9. Yes David said do not leave my soul in hell, the grave, and sleep. Until Jesus on the Cross that is where the soul was. It was not asleep. Sleep was a form of death, meaning it was not mortal, but the soul is immortal. Until the Atonement, heaven, Paradise was not available. The thief on the cross was the last dead OT saint, and the first NT soul in Paradise. Dying before Christ would have placed his soul in Abraham's bosom. He died after Jesus, because Jesus already gave up the ghost, and the thief died when they broke his bones and he succumbed to physical death.

The second point is death before and after Adam. There was no death, before Adam lost his spirit. It is not dead, it is with God. When a human is conceived, the spirit is separated and with God, and the Holy Spirit himself replaces and seals one from sin and death. If a person so chooses to ignore the Holy Spirit, and trust their own works and goodness, they become the physical dead. The body returns to dust and the soul is in hell. Dead twice, dead physically and dead to their spirit (because of Adam). In effect, their spirit is now a demon. It is dead, but searching for a host. That is why the occult world is off limits. So saying there is no activity would be dead wrong. The soul in the lake of fire does not die a 3rd time, it is still immortal. Soul sleep is wrong because that is the OT term for death as an OT saint, because of hope. That is why Paul said, "We shall not all sleep." We are not dead either. Paul says we are instantly in the presence of the Lamb under the alter.

The cross, settled where the soul goes. There was a resurrection of the OT saints when the ghost of Jesus immediately released all from Abraham's bosom. They had to wait 3.5 days to enter Paradise, under the alter. The thief did not have to wait, because he was the first NT soul that was immediately absent from the body, and present with the Lord in Paradise, under the alter. The resurrection of the OT saints happened before the thief died, they just had not been "raptured". That is what every verse claims in this thread. The interpretation has to be given with the Atonement on the Cross and the condition before and after the cross.

Now the death of the Spirit. The Atonement seals every single soul with the Holy Spirit, but His work only became important after the cross. It was evident in OT prophets as inspiration. But the spirit of those in Christ could only be restored some time before the Second Coming itself. The whole body of Christ needed to be finished. The last person who given the opportunity would accept. Only God knows this one person and God calls it finished, thus indicating the last person who would, did. It was both a human choice, and God’s choice.

Then the 5th seal is opened, and the glorified bodies, the spirit of God, given to Adam and the sons of God, Adam's full image, was restored to the body of Christ. The plan was complete. Complete for the church. Still not complete for the Jews alive on the earth outside of Christ and not complete for any one not a Jew, and not ever part of the church.

Now there is a slight disagreement between Paul and John, on the timing. In the opening of the 5th seal, it says they were given their white robes (spirit, glorified bodies) but would have to wait for others. Yes there would be more during the next two sets of Judgments, but Paul was not contradicting John, the church alive on earth was the first harvest to join them immediately. Then there is the harvest of living Jews, the sheep and the goats. Then out of the nations more wheat and tares.

Then at the Second Coming itself there would be humans left on earth. The less left, the better. If none left, the best. If Satan gets his 3.5 years those who get to live in the next 1000 years will have to reject the mark 666, and have their heads chopped of. Heads left on will mean the mark will be shown, as an expiration date, and those people are not found in the Lamb's book of life and they go immediately to the lake of fire. So even in the 1000 years, some of those, from Satan's 3.5 years, who have children, who will die and go to hell and death. Because those in Christ cannot die because they have immortality a glorified body that cannot die physically nor spiritually.

Bottom line currently a soul in Christ has a physical body that dies and turns to dust, but the soul goes to Paradise under the alter. A soul without Christ looses both physical body and spirit to dust and demonic activity. They will stand before God at the very last judgment to be told that God never knew them, and their names will be removed and their soul goes to the lake of fire. The soul never dies. Just the body of flesh and the spirit dies, because the spirit was never theirs at any time. It was separated from us because we were in Adam.

Those who refuse the work of the Holy Spirit sealing a soul from conception to death, also accept limited Atonement, and a soul is elect by God, the Holy Spirit is sent one time, and boom, they can't do anything about it. In fact they could live like Hitler or sinless perfection because their works are meaningless.

It is nonsense also. It is impossible for someone to live and not sin, thus sin is irrelavent to quenching the Holy Spirit to the point of impossibility. Quenching the Holy Spirit is an ongoing process that constantly has to be worked out, by dying to the flesh daily if not more often. Quenching the Holy Spirit one's whole life is the sin that the Cross does not cover, because one will die outside of Christ. Atonement and salvation are not works of the flesh that you have to achieve. Fully yielding to the Holy Spirit is a life long service in Christ. And the sooner the yielding the easier it is to produce fruit and works that will bring eternal reward to honor and glorify God with. The whole reason and plan of God for this reality is to bring glory and honor to God. We just have to do it all in a fleshly body that wants to do it's own thing. The body itself is fighting the soul. Also there are humans even today, that were never told the Gospel. That they have a Holy Spirit who can bring eternal salvation to them. These also throughout history will stand before God, and be given a choice, between their life long works of flesh or God. I guess after spending countless years in hell, they may still reject God out of spite.

 

[Hobie]

The issue is mixing what happened to the dead before and after the cross. You did not mention that all OT Saints came out of hell and their graves at the same moment Jesus said it is finished. They had to wait until the sting of death was gone. They were in corruption in Abraham's bosom. This was a separate place from the dead who died in their own sins.

Those souls in Abraham's bosom are now under the alter Revelation 6:9. Yes David said do not leave my soul in hell, the grave, and sleep. Until Jesus on the Cross that is where the soul was. It was not asleep. Sleep was a form of death, meaning it was not mortal, but the soul is immortal. Until the Atonement, heaven, Paradise was not available. The thief on the cross was the last dead OT saint, and the first NT soul in Paradise. Dying before Christ would have placed his soul in Abraham's bosom. He died after Jesus, because Jesus already gave up the ghost, and the thief died when they broke his bones and he succumbed to physical death.

The second point is death before and after Adam. There was no death, before Adam lost his spirit. It is not dead, it is with God. When a human is conceived, the spirit is separated and with God, and the Holy Spirit himself replaces and seals one from sin and death. If a person so chooses to ignore the Holy Spirit, and trust their own works and goodness, they become the physical dead. The body returns to dust and the soul is in hell. Dead twice, dead physically and dead to their spirit (because of Adam). In effect, their spirit is now a demon. It is dead, but searching for a host. That is why the occult world is off limits. So saying there is no activity would be dead wrong. The soul in the lake of fire does not die a 3rd time, it is still immortal. Soul sleep is wrong because that is the OT term for death as an OT saint, because of hope. That is why Paul said, "We shall not all sleep." We are not dead either. Paul says we are instantly in the presence of the Lamb under the alter.

The cross, settled where the soul goes. There was a resurrection of the OT saints when the ghost of Jesus immediately released all from Abraham's bosom. They had to wait 3.5 days to enter Paradise, under the alter. The thief did not have to wait, because he was the first NT soul that was immediately absent from the body, and present with the Lord in Paradise, under the alter. The resurrection of the OT saints happened before the thief died, they just had not been "raptured". That is what every verse claims in this thread. The interpretation has to be given with the Atonement on the Cross and the condition before and after the cross.

Now the death of the Spirit. The Atonement seals every single soul with the Holy Spirit, but His work only became important after the cross. It was evident in OT prophets as inspiration. But the spirit of those in Christ could only be restored some time before the Second Coming itself. The whole body of Christ needed to be finished. The last person who given the opportunity would accept. Only God knows this one person and God calls it finished, thus indicating the last person who would, did. It was both a human choice, and God’s choice.

Then the 5th seal is opened, and the glorified bodies, the spirit of God, given to Adam and the sons of God, Adam's full image, was restored to the body of Christ. The plan was complete. Complete for the church. Still not complete for the Jews alive on the earth outside of Christ and not complete for any one not a Jew, and not ever part of the church.

Now there is a slight disagreement between Paul and John, on the timing. In the opening of the 5th seal, it says they were given their white robes (spirit, glorified bodies) but would have to wait for others. Yes there would be more during the next two sets of Judgments, but Paul was not contradicting John, the church alive on earth was the first harvest to join them immediately. Then there is the harvest of living Jews, the sheep and the goats. Then out of the nations more wheat and tares.

Then at the Second Coming itself there would be humans left on earth. The less left, the better. If none left, the best. If Satan gets his 3.5 years those who get to live in the next 1000 years will have to reject the mark 666, and have their heads chopped of. Heads left on will mean the mark will be shown, as an expiration date, and those people are not found in the Lamb's book of life and they go immediately to the lake of fire. So even in the 1000 years, some of those, from Satan's 3.5 years, who have children, who will die and go to hell and death. Because those in Christ cannot die because they have immortality a glorified body that cannot die physically nor spiritually.

Bottom line currently a soul in Christ has a physical body that dies and turns to dust, but the soul goes to Paradise under the alter. A soul without Christ looses both physical body and spirit to dust and demonic activity. They will stand before God at the very last judgment to be told that God never knew them, and their names will be removed and their soul goes to the lake of fire. The soul never dies. Just the body of flesh and the spirit dies, because the spirit was never theirs at any time. It was separated from us because we were in Adam.

Those who refuse the work of the Holy Spirit sealing a soul from conception to death, also accept limited Atonement, and a soul is elect by God, the Holy Spirit is sent one time, and boom, they can't do anything about it. In fact they could live like Hitler or sinless perfection because their works are meaningless.

It is nonsense also. It is impossible for someone to live and not sin, thus sin is irrelavent to quenching the Holy Spirit to the point of impossibility. Quenching the Holy Spirit is an ongoing process that constantly has to be worked out, by dying to the flesh daily if not more often. Quenching the Holy Spirit one's whole life is the sin that the Cross does not cover, because one will die outside of Christ. Atonement and salvation are not works of the flesh that you have to achieve. Fully yielding to the Holy Spirit is a life long service in Christ. And the sooner the yielding the easier it is to produce fruit and works that will bring eternal reward to honor and glorify God with. The whole reason and plan of God for this reality is to bring glory and honor to God. We just have to do it all in a fleshly body that wants to do it's own thing. The body itself is fighting the soul. Also there are humans even today, that were never told the Gospel. That they have a Holy Spirit who can bring eternal salvation to them. These also throughout history will stand before God, and be given a choice, between their life long works of flesh or God. I guess after spending countless years in hell, they may still reject God out of spite.

Need to read your Bible..

Matthew 27:52
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

You can see how they were asleep in the grave, and it does not include all the saints, as these are the firstfruits.