The False Doctrine of the Immortality of the Soul..

[Hobie]

The parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man

(The story of Lazarus and the Rich Man can be found in Luke 16:19-31, please read it now so that the rest of this makes sense.)

First off, we have to determine IF this is a parable; let’s examine it:

When Jesus told the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man were there many people gathered?
Luke 15:1 - Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.
Ok, yes, there was a group/multitude present. Point #1.
Matthew 13:34 - All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
Jesus spoke ONLY in parables to the multitudes. Point #2 and slam dunk just based off this, but let's go further:

Lazarus and the Rich man was the last parable out of 5 he told that day. Starting in Luke 16:1 Jesus tells the following parables: The parable of the Lost Sheep, the parable of the Lost Coin, the parable of the Lost Son, the parable of the Shrewd Manager, and the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man. By the way, even the NIV translation defines this story as being a parable – thus not to be taken literally.

The parable of the Shrewd Manager begins EXACTLY like the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man; “There was a certain rich man…..” How is that for putting together like topics?

Many people say that when we die our physical body returns to dust (which is true) but they also say that our “soul” goes to heaven without our body (oops - wrong). They go on to say that at the resurrection, our souls are reunited with our physical bodies and they become glorified. With that in mind let's look at the facts: the rich man in the parable was buried (Luke 16:22), yet the very next verse says he had EYES to look up with. Luke 16:24 says the buried Rich Man had a TONGUE. The parable also says Lazarus has a FINGER and Abraham has a BOSOM. Do these physical attributes apply to a soul? Not according to Jesus. Doesn’t that blow the theory of “our souls reunite with our bodies”? Jesus said in Luke 24:39 that a spirit does not have flesh and bones!!
Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; FOR A SPIRIT HATH NOT FLESH AND BONES, as ye see me have.
I think we should believe Christ, don't you?

John 14:1-3 says the eternal home of the saved is in heaven, not Abraham’s bosom:
John 14:1-3 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that WHERE I AM, there ye may be also.
Is Jesus in Abraham’s bosom? No. Study the scriptures and you will find what is meant by bosom and that will give you a clearer picture of what is going on here; I’ll just tell you now that “Abraham’s bosom” is not heaven. I strongly urge readers to find out for themselves.

In the parable a great gulf exists between Lazarus and the Rich Man. This gulf is so vast in expanse that it is impossible for those on one side to pass through to the other side. In spite of this, the Rich Man is able to recognize both Abraham and Lazarus as well as hold an intelligent conversation? Does that make sense? No. This story is a parable and thus not to be taken literally. This parable actually illustrates how one should live, not how we die.

Another argument that I’ve heard is that the “glorified body” that we receive is a spiritual body and not one of flesh and bone.
Luke 24:39 - Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
This is Christ talking to the apostles when they first see Him after He rose from the grave. Does Christ say here that He is in a spiritual body or a flesh one? More on this point below.

 

[Hobie]

Let’s look at the example of Jesus and see how He ascended:

Luke 24:39 - Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
This verifies that Christ had a physical body, not a spiritual one, after He resurrected....
And then we find: John 20:17 - Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

This verifies that Jesus had not yet ascended to heaven, agreed?
Acts 1:3 - To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
This shows that Jesus was here on earth for 40 days after His resurrection – He did not ascend immediately following death.

And finally:

Acts 1:11 - Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Acts 1:22 - Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.
Here it is told of Jesus ascending to heaven. No where does it indicate that only Jesus’ spirit went to heaven and His body stayed behind – on the contrary, the disciples watched Him ascend with their own eyes. And since there is no information to show any change in Christ’s presence (switching from body to spirit) the only logical thing that can be concluded from this is that Christ went up in bodily form.

Further, if we are taken up in spiritual bodies, and such bodies do not require food or drink then reconcile these verses for me:

Isaiah 36:17 - Until I come and take you away to a land like your own land, a land of corn and wine, a land of bread and vineyards.

Isaiah 65:17 & 21 - For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind…And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.

Do spirits require food, drink, and shelter? No. We go to heaven in a fully fleshy body (the whole living soul as defined in Genesis).

Some people have tried to say the following supports Jesus had a spiritual body after His resurrection and not a physical one:

John 20:19 - Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

Now, when you compare this verse to the others where Jesus clearly says He is flesh I think it is a huge assumption to say that Jesus walked through the wall (and was thus in a spiritual body) to be with His disciples. I’m not joking, that is what has been argued to me. The plain teaching of the Bible is that Jesus had a physical body after His resurrection and maintained that state even at His ascension. He probably entered the room via the door like anyone with a body of flesh would do; I know it doesn't say He used the door but the Bible also doesn't say Jesus dressed Himself either - see what I mean?

The big question concerning those that will burn in hell centers around the character of God. Do we agree that God is good and merciful? Yes. Is God fair? Yes. Is God a tyrant? I say no, He isn’t. With that said, how can people burn in hell for eternity? Wouldn’t that also mean they have eternal life? Would it be fair for Cain (who killed his brother) to burn in hell about 4,000 years longer than Hitler? It is this belief that "sinners burn in hell forever" that has caused so many to turn from God and the teachings of Christianity. The problem is that mainstream Christianity, not the Bible, erroneously teaches that hell burns forever and that gives the impression that we are serving a tyrant. That simply is not so – that teaching is alien to the scriptures. However, that study is outside the scope of this study even though they are related. Let me just say for now that hell is not eternal, the meaning of “for ever” in the Bible does not mean the ceaseless ages of eternity – it merely means “until it is done”. But like I said, that is another study. I encourage you to study that for yourself or look at my other study in this forum called Is For Ever ceaseless?.

What about ghosts and those who channel spirits?
Revelation 12:9 - And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Matthew 24:24 - For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Basically, it is Satan’s total intent that he deceive the entire world and he will use great signs and wonders (along with his more subtle tactics) in order to accomplish this goal. For you see, deception causes people to distrust the Word of God; it makes people doubt. And doubt is all Satan needs to pull people away from God. Sometimes the line between truth and error is so thin that unless you know what the Bible actually says you can become lost and believe a lie. Study it earnestly!

 

[Hobie]

Final note: In order to find the Biblical truth of any topic; whether it be state of the dead, prophecy, hell and hell-fire, the old or new covenant, etc; the way you do it is to get together ALL of the verses of the Bible that talk about the topic and compare them. Look at the topic from all sides and gather all the verses that aptly pertain. Also note the sequence of events - that is vital! Getting just one or two verses will almost always paint an incomplete picture – so don’t stand on just 1 or 2 verses. Get all the verses together and then you’ll know you have Biblical truth! Then there will only remain one question; are you going to follow the Bible or the traditions of men or a church? Think about that when you read:

Colossians 2:8 - Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Mark 7:9 - And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Matthew 15:3 - But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

Matthew 15:6 - And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

Ephesians 5:6 - Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 - Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

 

[mailmandan]

Is this the Baptist Board or the SDA Board?

 

[Hobie]

Is this the Baptist Board or the SDA Board?

Its where Gods truth is being studied, I don't think labels will matter to God in the end.

 

[timtofly]

Need to read your Bible..

Matthew 27:52
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

You can see how they were asleep in the grave, and it does not include all the saints, as these are the firstfruits.

That was the term for death in the OT. That is what I said. It was not sleep. It was temporary death. It would be like saying every night you die, and are resurrected every morning, when you sleep. Jesus brought all in Abraham's bosom out of the earth. We are only told about those coming out in Jerusalem.

 

[Yeshua1]

I don't think any true believer believes that Christ went to hell. If you look in context, it was the Holy Spirit that quickened or had a part in the resurrection. Peter was not telling us about a mystical spirit ministry at the death of Christ at all. In the context of his statement, it is clearly seen that the whole reason Peter referred to the flood was to tell us that the resurrection is our only hope of Salvation just like the Ark was for the Antediluvians. To demonstrate our faith that Jesus was raised from the dead, and that we believed He also had power to raise us from the dead, we were to be baptized:

Romans 6:3,5 King James Version (KJV)
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?...
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Paul stated that Jesus went to Hades and brought out His own there to heaven with Him! All were still alive!

 

[timtofly]

The parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man

(The story of Lazarus and the Rich Man can be found in Luke 16:19-31, please read it now so that the rest of this makes sense.)

First off, we have to determine IF this is a parable; let’s examine it:

When Jesus told the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man were there many people gathered?
Luke 15:1 - Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.
Ok, yes, there was a group/multitude present. Point #1.
Matthew 13:34 - All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
Jesus spoke ONLY in parables to the multitudes. Point #2 and slam dunk just based off this, but let's go further:

Lazarus and the Rich man was the last parable out of 5 he told that day. Starting in Luke 16:1 Jesus tells the following parables: The parable of the Lost Sheep, the parable of the Lost Coin, the parable of the Lost Son, the parable of the Shrewd Manager, and the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man. By the way, even the NIV translation defines this story as being a parable – thus not to be taken literally.

The parable of the Shrewd Manager begins EXACTLY like the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man; “There was a certain rich man…..” How is that for putting together like topics?

Many people say that when we die our physical body returns to dust (which is true) but they also say that our “soul” goes to heaven without our body (oops - wrong). They go on to say that at the resurrection, our souls are reunited with our physical bodies and they become glorified. With that in mind let's look at the facts: the rich man in the parable was buried (Luke 16:22), yet the very next verse says he had EYES to look up with. Luke 16:24 says the buried Rich Man had a TONGUE. The parable also says Lazarus has a FINGER and Abraham has a BOSOM. Do these physical attributes apply to a soul? Not according to Jesus. Doesn’t that blow the theory of “our souls reunite with our bodies”? Jesus said in Luke 24:39 that a spirit does not have flesh and bones!!
Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; FOR A SPIRIT HATH NOT FLESH AND BONES, as ye see me have.
I think we should believe Christ, don't you?

John 14:1-3 says the eternal home of the saved is in heaven, not Abraham’s bosom:
John 14:1-3 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that WHERE I AM, there ye may be also.
Is Jesus in Abraham’s bosom? No. Study the scriptures and you will find what is meant by bosom and that will give you a clearer picture of what is going on here; I’ll just tell you now that “Abraham’s bosom” is not heaven. I strongly urge readers to find out for themselves.

In the parable a great gulf exists between Lazarus and the Rich Man. This gulf is so vast in expanse that it is impossible for those on one side to pass through to the other side. In spite of this, the Rich Man is able to recognize both Abraham and Lazarus as well as hold an intelligent conversation? Does that make sense? No. This story is a parable and thus not to be taken literally. This parable actually illustrates how one should live, not how we die.

Another argument that I’ve heard is that the “glorified body” that we receive is a spiritual body and not one of flesh and bone.
Luke 24:39 - Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
This is Christ talking to the apostles when they first see Him after He rose from the grave. Does Christ say here that He is in a spiritual body or a flesh one? More on this point below.

Adam had a spiritual body that was just as physical as this body. Spiritual does not mean non-tangible. John calls it a robe of white, but that is not a literal physical cloth gown. It is a body of light without any organs, bones, and flesh, but it looks like you if you were a physical light bulb. It is a tangible layer over a physical layer. Paul does not say we will not have a physical layer. He said this body of corruption will have a body of incorruption. And the soul would be immortal. Then he says it will be glorified. It will put on another layer, the spirit of light. This does not happen to those alive in Christ, today, until the opening of the 6th seal. But those in Christ, under the alter, already have an immortal soul, and a body that is incorruptible. But they have to wait until the 5th seal to get their body of light, their spirit.

If I told a parable that included Abraham and Trump, would it no longer be a parable, even I said it was? Why would you think it was not a parable? Would Jesus be lying in a parable if Lazarus was not actually a begger, and there was no rich man, and Abraham could not talk to anyone across a large abyss? Abraham and Lazarus in Abraham's bosom were real. The parable included two real humans in a literal place. The Parable was the story, that even if one tried, they cannot leave the place of death, nor would one be able from the dead to prevent others from going there. It was about how the best things in life cannot save one's soul from being separated from God. It very well could have been a Parable about the actual Lazarus. Jesus later declares that one can come back from the dead. Jesus did not lie in the Parable. He said even if one were to be resurrected, it would not change those who were rich, and prevent them from going to hell, eternally separated from God. Jesus did bring Lazarus back from being dead. It was to show, that He Himself would rise from the dead. Even his disciples did not think that possible, until Jesus Himself opened their eyes to the truth. Putting live humans into a Parable, and stating that Abraham's bosom was at one point a literal place of the OT saints, does not make them less literal, when mentioned in a Parable. The other facts of the story, surrounding both humans and where they were, is the Parable part. Lazarus was not a begger with leprosy and the rich man was not literal, because that was the Parable.

Why is Cain in hell? He is literally not an offspring of Satan. Why is a figurative saying literal in some cases and a literal human just figurative in others? Humans mix those two conditions constantly and turn the truth into a lie, and cause humans to think lies are the truth. The sons of God were immortal beings. They still are. The descendants of fallen Adam are not immortal beings, they just have biological souls, that is souls formed into a biological body that will die, but the soul is mortal only until death. Upon death, in Christ, a mortal soul becomes immortal. But even outside of Christ a sinner becomes an immortal sinner, as an immortal soul. All have passed from the curse of death brought on by Adam's disobedience. Some to everlasting punishment. Some restored in Christ, and soon will be restored completely as full sons of God.

Why is it so hard for all to see the difference and when to use figurative and literal at the proper times. Cain was never pronounced dead, physically nor spiritually. Unless God has privately revealed hidden knowledge to some outside of the Bible, which would then be highly suspicious, because scripture is not some private hidden truth, then Cain is still a son of God and still with God in heaven.

Yes, Jude does say Cain started a bad precedent. That is all it says. We should not be jealous because God accepts what others do. We should be content with what we do, and have a good attitude. No it is not righteous to kill any one, yet Paul the apostle was saved from a lifestyle that murdered many humans. It is not of works good or bad that make us saved or lost. They condemn us and betray who we are. But salvation and Atonement comes from God when we turn away from who we are and obey God. It is not accepting our own abilities, it is accepting what God did before the world was even created.

 

[Timothy Jason]

Boy Howdy! This fellow is rather long winded.

 

[timtofly]

Boy Howdy! This fellow is rather long winded.

This is not Twitter.

 

[37818]

We exist only as mortal bodies, . . .

That is not true as stated.

There are a number of issues. Yes, the human soul is mortal (Ezekiel 18:4, James 5:20). It is not a Biblical teaching that the human soul is immortal.

But Jesus plainly taught the mere killing of the body does not kill the soul, Matthew 10:28. And furthermore warned that both the body and, yes, the soul can perish in the eternal fire. What does not die is the person's consciousness being called "their" worm [singular, not plural], Mark 9:48, Psalms 22:6.

Jesus in His soul died on the cross, Isaiah 53:10, Isaiah 53:12, Psalms 22:1, while He was yet in His body physically alive. And so after the payment for sins was paid in full, John 19:28, and before He physically died, His fellowship was restored with His Father, saying, "It is finished," and, "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit." -- John 19:30, Luke 23:46.

Dead souls are conscious, Mark 9:48, Revelation 14:10-11.

 

[Scott Downey]

Since God can not be destroyed and we are made in His image, as a spiritual being, then the immortality of the person has good support from scripture aboiut the eternal nature of a person, and also Christ when speaking about hell says they are tormented eternally in a neverending judgement of eternal fire.

You are either eternally dead or eternally alive.
Jesus did say that all live to Him. and there is a resurrection of the just and the unjust.

Luke 20:38 - Bible Gateway

 

[Revmitchell]

Boy Howdy! This fellow is rather long winded.

Yea hardly anyone reads them

 

[Hobie]

That is not true as stated.

There are a number of issues. Yes, the human soul is mortal (Ezekiel 18:4, James 5:20). It is not a Biblical teaching that the human soul is immortal.

But Jesus plainly taught the mere killing of the body does not kill the soul, Matthew 10:28. And furthermore warned that both the body and, yes, the soul can perish in the eternal fire. What does not die is the person's consciousness being called "their" worm [singular, not plural], Mark 9:48, Psalms 22:6.

Jesus in His soul died on the cross, Isaiah 53:10, Isaiah 53:12, Psalms 22:1, while He was yet in His body physically alive. And so after the payment for sins was paid in full, John 19:28, and before He physically died, His fellowship was restored with His Father, saying, "It is finished," and, "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit." -- John 19:30, Luke 23:46.

Dead souls are conscious, Mark 9:48, Revelation 14:10-11.

The soul is part of the body, you are made alive as a soul through the breath of life, and without it you cease and the body dies. Here is a good study on it "...Throughout human history, people have refused to accept the finality that death brings to life. They have tried to deny the reality of death by teaching various forms of life after death. A key component of this teaching has been the belief in the survival of the soul apart from the body at the moment of death.

In spite of all the scientific breakthrough, the popularity of the belief in the immortality of the soul has not subsided. On the contrary, it is spreading today like wildfire. According to a recent Gallup Poll, 71 percent of Americans believe in some form of conscious life after death.1 The popularity of this belief can be attributed, not only to the traditional teachings of Catholic and Protestant churches, but also to such factors as the polished image of mediums and psychics, the sophisticated "scientific" research into near-death experiences, and the popular New Age channeling with the alleged spirits of the past.

The result is that few beliefs are more widely held today than that of the "immortal soul." Virtually everyone is familiar with this belief. If asked, the average religious person would define the belief something like this: A human being is composed of both body and soul. The body is the temporary physical flesh-and-blood "shell" that houses the soul. The soul is the nonmaterial, immortal component that leaves the body at death and lives on consciously forever in heaven or hell (or purgatory for the Catholics).

Is this popular belief taught in the Bible? Does the Bible teach that we have an immortal soul that leaves the body at death and heads on for heaven or hell, or purgatory? The answer of the average religious person is "YES"! They simply assume that the belief in the immortality of the soul is taught in the Bible. Is this true? Absolutely NOT! This chapter shows that the notion of an immortal soul co-existing with a mortal body, is foreign to the Bible. It derives mostly from Greek pagan philosophies that gradually entered into the Christian church.

We shall see that the biblical view of human nature is wholistic, not dualistic, that is to say, body and soul are not two distinct components, but an indissoluble unity. The soul is simply the animating principle of the body.....” Immortality or Resurrection? The Biblical View of Death

My buddy Palehorse also had a good understanding on the verse you posted. Lets look at the verse:

Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

I think we can both agree that Matthew 10:28 does not define what a soul is; and I believe that is the question at hand. While I agree that the NT's usage of soul/psuche (Strong's #5590) is an expanded one that covers various symbolic meanings, however none of the NT references that I'm aware of define what a soul is. That definition is found in the OT.

Now some points on this verse in question:
1) By one saying that this verse possibly indicates that the soul is a separate, dualistic part of a human, than the verse itself states clearly that the soul is NOT immortal; "destroy both soul and body in hell". That alone tells me that the soul, however we decide to define it, CAN be destroyed - thus it is not immortal.

2) When we look at the various definitions for psuche in the lexicon we find a myriad of possible definitions. How do you decide which one of these definitions fits?

3) When one reads the entire Matthew 10 (particularly starting at 10:16 onward) account we find that Christ is talking to the apostles in regards to their persecution as they are being sent out to spread the Gospel. He tells them how hard it is going to be (such as in 10:9 how they would be poor (no gold, nor silver, nor brass)). He tells them not to fear those that are going to persecute them, that they would be brought before governers and kings (verse 18) by those that would have them persecuted. Basically, what we find is Jesus warning them but at the same time giving them strength to do His work - that is the theme - not fearing men. He is telling them to stay strong, for though men may be able to kill them ONLY God can determine ones salvation.

4) I think the crux of your point is going to be "why is body and soul mentioned seperately if they are one and the same as your essay states"? That is a very simple answer; as I stated at the beginning of this reply, the NT expands the means of words used in the OT. Soul in the NT, as we've seen from the Strong's Lexicon #5590, has various meanings. But you'll notice that virtually every definition (in particularly definition #2) shows traits that are associated with the whole being of a person (their feelings, desires, affections, etc). These are parts of the whole person, not some seperate "essense" as the very last definition (2c) would try to squeeze in. As such, the verse simply means [paraphrase] "do not be afraid of those that can kill you, if you are going to be afraid of anyone be afraid of God, for it is He that can destroy you utterly as it is He that decides your salvation".

Does this make sense for I might not have been very clear? But I think once we look at the entire body of texts the overwhelming conclusion of what a soul is easily found. According to rule #7 we must harmonize less-clear verses with those that are more clear. As such, Gen 2:7 is the clearer verse and it tells us exactly what a soul is.

I do have to say that the Bible tells us what a soul is (which we saw in Gen 2:7) and that only God has immortality at this point (1 Timothy 1:17 & 1 Timothy 6:15-16). Let's see those verses quickly:
1 Timothy 6:15-16 - Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
1 Timothy 1:17 - Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

To arrive at the conclusion that souls are somehow immortal would take a lot of scriptural proof, and as far as I know, such scriptures simply do not exist.

There are far too many verses in Psalms where David is talking about his enemies seeking him to destroy his soul.

Psalms 40:14 - Let them be ashamed and confounded together that seek after my soul to destroy it; let them be driven backward and put to shame that wish me evil.

Psalms 35:4 - Let them be confounded and put to shame that seek after my soul: let them be turned back and brought to confusion that devise my hurt.

When we look to the rules of hermeneutics we see that we must interpret the means of obscure passages with those that are clearer (rule #7). As such, I have a verse that tells what a soul is [Gen 2:7], that only God has immortality [specifically 1 Tim 6:16], that man can in fact destroy a human soul (for that is what David was talking about)[Psalms 40:14 specifically]; in light of this it would seem the clearest interpretation that can be derived is that the Bible teaches body/soul/spirit wholism verses body/soul dualism.

 

[canadyjd]

So, in Revelation we have saints standing around and under the throne of God.,..speaking to God...offering praises to God...asking questions of God... and your answer is to dismiss it as symbolic. There are no saints in heaven praising God as we speak.

Concerning the transfiguration, where Jesus is transformed and seen by Peter and John talking to Moses and Elijah, your answer is to dismiss it as symbolic. Jesus didn’t really talk to the spirits of Moses and Elijah.

I understand you

Thanks for the conversation.

peace to you

 

[Hobie]

So, in Revelation we have saints standing around and under the throne of God.,..speaking to God...offering praises to God...asking questions of God... and your answer is to dismiss it as symbolic. There are no saints in heaven praising God as we speak.

Concerning the transfiguration, where Jesus is transformed and seen by Peter and John talking to Moses and Elijah, your answer is to dismiss it as symbolic. Jesus didn’t really talk to the spirits of Moses and Elijah.

I understand you

Thanks for the conversation.

peace to you

He talked to them directly, Elijah didn't die and Moses was brought up as we saw, so the Bible explains itself.

 

[Hobie]

That was the term for death in the OT. That is what I said. It was not sleep. It was temporary death. It would be like saying every night you die, and are resurrected every morning, when you sleep. Jesus brought all in Abraham's bosom out of the earth. We are only told about those coming out in Jerusalem.

This explains the usage term for death and the words scripture uses more clearly.."Death as Cessation of Life. When we search the Bible for a description of the nature of death, we find many clear statements that need little or no interpretation. In the first place, Scripture describes death as a return to the elements from which man originally was made. In pronouncing sentence upon Adam after his disobedience, God said: In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread till you return to the ground, for . . . you are dust and to dust you shall return (Gen 3:19). This graphic statement tells us that death is not the separation of the soul from the body, but the termination of one's life, which results in the decay and decomposition of the body. Since man is created of perishable matter, his natural condition is mortality (Gen 3:19).53

A study of the words to die, death, and dead in Hebrew and Greek reveals that death is perceived in the Bible as the deprivation or cessation of life. The ordinary Hebrew word meaning to die is muth, which occurs in the Old Testament over 800 times. In the vast majority of cases, muth is used in the simple sense of the death of men and animals. There is no hint in its usage of any distinction between the two. A clear example is found in Ecclesiastes 3:19, which says: For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other.

The Hebrew muth to die is sometimes used, as in English, in a figurative way to denote the destruction or elimination of a nation (Is 65:15; Hos 2:3; Amos 2:2), a tribe (Deut 33:6; Hos 13:1), or a city (2 Sam. 20:19). None of these figurative uses supports the idea of individual survival. On the contrary, we find that the word muth [to die] is used in Deuteronomy 2:16 in parallel with tamam, which means to be consumed or to be finished. The parallelism suggests that death is seen as the end of life.

The corresponding, ordinary Greek word meaning to die is apothanein which is used 77 times in the New Testament. With few exceptions, the verb denotes the cessation of life. The exceptions are mostly figurative uses which depend upon the literal meaning. For example, Paul says: We are convinced that one has died for all; therefore all have died (2 Cor 5:14). It is evident that this is not referring to physical death but to the effects of Christ's death on the believer's position before God. We could translate therefore all have died as therefore all are counted to have died. None of the literal or figurative uses of the Hebrew muth or of the Greek apothanein suggests that the soul or spirit survives the death of an individual.

Old Testament Descriptions of Death. We have just noted that the Hebrew and Greek verbs used in Scripture for to die do not really explain the meaning and nature of death, except to tell us that the death of men and animals is identical. More revealing is the use of the Hebrew noun maveth which is used about 150 times and is generally translated death. From the use of maveth in the Old Testament, we learn three important things about the nature of death.

First, there is no remembrance of the Lord in death: For in death [maveth] there is no remembrance of thee; in Sheol who can give thee praise (Ps 6:5). The reason for no remembrance in death is simply because the thinking process stops when the body with its brain dies. His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that day his thoughts perish (Ps 146:4). Since at death the thoughts perish, it is evident there is no conscious soul that survives the death of the body. If the thinking process, which is generally associated with the soul, survived the death of the body, then the thoughts of the saints would not perish. They would be able to remember God. But the fact is that the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing (Eccl 9:5).

Second, no praise of God is possible in death or in the grave. What profit is there in my death [maveth], if I go down to the Pit? Will the dust praise thee? Will it tell of thy faithfulness? (Ps 30:9). By comparing death with dust, the Psalmist clearly shows that there is no consciousness in death because dust cannot think. The same thought is expressed in Psalm 115:17: The dead do not praise the Lord, nor do any that go down into silence. Here the Psalmist describes death as a state of silence. What a contrast with the noisy popular vision of the afterlife where the saints praise God in Heaven and the wicked cry in agony in Hell!

Third, death is described as a sleep. Consider and answer me, O Lord my God; lighten my eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death (Ps 13:3). This characterization of death as sleep occurs frequently in the Old and New Testaments because it fittingly represents the state of unconsciousness in death. Shortly we examine the significance of the sleep metaphor for understanding the nature of death...."..https://www.truthaccordingtoscripture.com/documents/death/immortality-or-resurection/immortality-or-resurection-ch3.php#.XtvAFcmSm1s

 

[37818]

The soul is part of the body, . . .

Not in evidence.

I think we can both agree that Matthew 10:28 does not define what a soul is; and I believe that is the question at hand. While I agree that the NT's usage of soul/psuche (Strong's #5590) is an expanded one that covers various symbolic meanings, however none of the NT references that I'm aware of define what a soul is. That definition is found in the OT.

Now some points on this verse in question:
1) By one saying that this verse possibly indicates that the soul is a separate, dualistic part of a human, than the verse itself states clearly that the soul is NOT immortal; "destroy both soul and body in hell". That alone tells me that the soul, however we decide to define it, CAN be destroyed - thus it is not immortal.

The soul not being immortal is not at issue.
Jesus made it explicit, that killing the body does not kill the soul. Paul taught the body, soul and spirit as being distinct, 1 Thessalonians 5:23,"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." And the word of God is what separates the soul and spirit of man, Hebrews 4:12, "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

Your apparent failure to understand the death of Jesus' soul on the cross for sins while He was fully conscious.

 

[Van]

When we are first born, we have a "human" spirit, formed by God within us.
But due to the Fall, that "spirit" is condemned to die, to enter non-existence. That is why we fear God who can destroy both the body and the soul in Gehenna.
Those of us who are placed spiritually into Christ are born anew, made alive and united with Christ. At this point, we"shall not perish, but have eternal life." We become immortal.
Those who die in "unbelief" are consigned to Hades until the Second Coming. This is a place of torment and regret.
When the "resurrection of the dead" occurs, all spirits consigned to Hades are united with their physical bodies and face the "White Throne Judgement." After that, the names not being found in the Lambs book of life, the unsaved are thrown into the Lake of Fire and into "Eternal Punishment."

 

[Dave G]

Is this the Baptist Board or the SDA Board?

It's the Baptist Board, "Other Denominations" section.