Featured Temporal Salvation?

I didn't say salvation was probation. To say that is what I have said is a gross exaggeration and mischaracterization of my actual, and scriptural, position. Probation is the allotted time of God's grace to exercise that faith given, to live by the grace given. Salvation is the process or events. Event is not time. Time is not the event.

Eternal life is always conditional when speaking of created beings. Eternal life is found only "in" Christ Jesus, and that through faith. Thus the connective word, the action word, believeth.

Yes, Jesus is the door (into the Sanctuary). I didn't say that Jesus is a "revolving door". To say that is what I have said is a gross exaggeration and mischaracterization of my actual, and scriptural, position. A door opens, and a door closes, and a door may open and close again to either let in, or to let out. To keep in, or to keep out. Yet in so saying, Jesus is not a prison cell door, by which if one enters, may not leave of their own choice but is forcibly kept under lock and key. Jesus, being God manifest in the flesh, is love. Love does not forcibly retain those who no longer desire to remain in the union, who no longer believe. Love is always freedom to choose, never a prison cell, never a rape of the soul (forcibly retain those who no longer desire to stay). If one leaves Jesus, no longer believing, it is permanently, see Hebrews 6.

It is not as if Jesus forces people in, or forces persons out. A revolving door implies I must go out, but this is not so with Jesus. Only a possibility exists, by my own choice (Romans 8:39) and by using the gift given by God, that I may no longer believe, and choose to leave Him, and no longer believe in Him. It is not a must, but it is an if.

 

When Peter doubted and began to sink beneath the waves, Jesus saved him from drowning in the absence of faith.

 

Mat_14:31 And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?

"little", not "0".

Romans 14:23 "... for whatsoever is not of faith is sin."

1Jn_5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

Yet:

1Jn_5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

 

Paul told the Corinthians to turn an erring brother over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh so his soul would be saved. You can take the easy way or the hard way but Jesus says none of his will be lost.

 

Did Jesus let Peter drown in his doubt?

 

Are we not sealed until the day of redemption?

 

Are you not sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption?

 

Hi NetChaplain,
I agree, once saved, always saved. We know that nothing external can separate us from the love of God. So the "you could lose your salvation in Christ" folks say we can choose to end our heart-felt and full faith in Christ after being saved. As your thoughtful post above demonstrates, many verses would need to be rewritten if salvation is not permanent, i.e shall not perish but have eternal life. This would need to be rewritten to say shall not perish but have eternal life provided you choose to continue in your faith forever or at least until you physically die.

But another line of evidence (I believe) can be found in 1 Peter 1:3-5 where we are kept (as in a locked jail cell) by the power of God through faith. I believe this means God actually protects (sustains) our faith once we are born anew, therefore nothing can separate us from the love of God.

 

I agree with your first 3 points, Alofa.

But I see point 4 described above as being part of points 2 and 3.
My point is, that God's word teaches that there are two distinct groups within mankind when it comes to those who profess Christ...
God's children, which fit this passage:

" Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." ( John 5:24 )

They "hear" His words because they are "of God" ( John 8:43-47 ), they believe on the Father who sent Jesus Christ, they have ( present tense possessive ) everlasting life, they shall not come into condemnation ( See Romans 8:1 ), and they are passed from death unto life.
They shall never die:

" Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 and whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" ( John 11:25-26 ).



"But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." ( Hebrews 10:39 ).
They are not of those who draw back, fall away and love the world and its ways, but of them who believe to the saving of the soul.

They are kept, unfailingly, by the power of God through faith unto that salvation ( 1 Peter 1:5 ), and all their sins are paid for ( Colossians 2:13-14 ).
Their faith never fails, even though it may waver ( from man's perspective ) on the surface.


When grown to spiritual maturity they are very different, in every aspect, from those who superficially profess Christ but never grow to maturity.
They are Christ's sheep, they follow Him, they know Him and are known of Him.

 

I don't think the devil was sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption.

 

@Alofa Atu

Then there are those who are false brethren and are not His children...
They are "tares" ( Matthew 13:24-30 the parable, Matthew 13:36-43 the explanation of the parable ) who fit the first 3 "soils" of the parable of the sower ( Matthew 13:3:9 the parable, Matthew 13:18-23 the explanation of the parable ) who believe for a while and then, in time of tribulation or temptation, they do fall away.
They never do bear true spiritual fruit as found here:

" But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 meekness, temperance: against such there is no law." Galatians 5:22-23 ).

Notice that one of the fruits of the Spirit is faith, Alofa.
One cannot have true faith and not have the Holy Spirit of God in them.
Only a person who has the Spirit indwelling them, will ever have the faith that endures to the end...
The two are inseparable.



These false brethren ( as well as false teachers ) fit this:

" For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog [is] turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire." ( 2 Peter 2:20-22 ).

I understand this as describing an outward profession, and a superficial "escaping" and "knowing", since the new birth cannot be reversed and a true believer cannot become unsealed with the Holy Spirit, because that sealing is said to be to the day of redemption ( Ephesians 1:13, Ephesians 4:30 ).

They are not Christ's sheep, who He gave His life for ( John 10:11 ) will lose none of ( John 6:37-40, John 10:28-29 ) and that nothing shall separate them from the love of God ( Romans 8:31-39 ) and they never really did know Him, spiritually.
They were never born again at the heart level, because once made alive spiritually unto God, one is permanently passed from death unto life.

Only tares, who are in reality the spiritual children of the devil and still love the world and its ways at heart, will ever fall back into that which they were never really brought out of by the power of God.



But I can see that we are on completely opposite sides of this subject, so I also see that there's no reason for us to further discuss this.

I would suggest starting a thread about it, but I will say in advance that I will not be participating since I do not see the Bible teaching that a blood-bought child of the living God, whom God loved even when they were dead in their trespasses and sins ( Ephesians 2:1-6 ), would ever lose their gift ( I say gift because it is not a reward for the believer actually doing anything to merit it ) of eternal life.


Good morning to you sir, and I wish you good health and God's blessings upon your heart and mind.

 

Speaking of the door of salvation, now the door of salvation is already shut. The earth is poluted, infested, of apostasies, and false teachings, and false doctrines, doctrines of demons-(2Cor.11:v.13-15-, and even of a multitude of false Christians that endure not sound doctrine; having itching ears they turned away their ears from God's Truth, and turned unto fables, said Paul the Apostle to Timothy..

If any have ONLY lamp, that is, only the LITERAL knowledge of the Word of God, he is lost, lost for ever. And who sells oil now, false sellers, is also lost, said JESUS-Matthew 25.

Now, let us see, as in the days of Noah were, so is also now in the coming of JESUS, it means that, as in the days that were BEFORE the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, and knew not that the door of the Ark was shut, and the flood came and took them all away; so also now in the coming of the LORD Jesus, the door is already shut BEFORE before His coming in this end of the times or in the days ahead, as the door of the Ark that God shut it BEFORE the flood, and many will seek to enter in and shall not be able, and then will be revealed who is in and who is out of the Kingdom of God, and lost for ever.

 

Salvation is being accomplished now, and there are saved people who will meet the Lord when He comes:

" But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words." ( 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 ).

The door is shut on the Gentiles when He says it is:

" For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in." ( Romans 11:25 ).

After that, He shall save the remaining Jews that are alive at His coming.
...and yes, many shall seek to enter in and shall not be able, in and of themselves.

Eternal life is the gift of God ( Romans 6:23 ), and cannot be earned by our own efforts ( Ephesians 2:8-9 ).


May God bless you sir.

 

Eternal IN-securitsts often use Luke 8:13 as an alleged proof text that a genuine believer can lose their salvation, yet not all belief is the same. Even though this shallow ground hearer in Luke 8:13 is said to have "believed," yet he is never said to have been "saved." How do we know that the shallow ground hearer was never actually "saved"? Allow me to explain.

First, his heart condition is contrasted with that of the "good ground" hearer in the 4th soil, who's heart was "good" and "honest." Thus, his heart was not "good," being like the soil to which it corresponds, being "shallow" or "rocky," lacking sufficient depth. Such soil represents a sinner not properly prepared in heart. People who "believe" and "rejoice" at the preaching of the gospel without a prepared heart, and without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" in themselves, do not experience real salvation.

IN CONTRAST TO - Mark 4:8 - But other seed fell on good ground and yielded a crop that sprang up, increased and produced: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred. Luke 8:15 says, But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. So the rocky soil represents a person not properly prepared in heart so the seed planted ends up with a lack of "root" (lack of being firmly planted, or established) and good soil represents a person properly prepared in heart who having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keeps it and bears fruit with patience.

*Unlike saving belief, temporary, shallow belief is not rooted in a regenerate heart. How can no depth of earth, no root, no moisture, no fruit, represent saving belief? Also the same Greek word for believe "pisteuo" is used in James 2:19, in which we read that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they are not saved.

John has portrayed people who "believe" (at least to some extent) but are clearly not saved. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of consummated belief resulting in salvation." As we see in John 2:23-25, in which their belief was superficial in nature and Jesus would not entrust/commit Himself to them.

Also, in John 8:31-59, where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turn out to be slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus’, children of the devil, liars, accused Jesus of having a demon and were guilty of setting out to stone and kill the one they have professed to believe in. We can see at best, these Jews believed in Him (based on their own misconceptions and expectations) of Jesus, yet upon gaining further knowledge about Jesus through His words, we see they did not truly "believe unto salvation" and become children of God (John 1:12; 3:18) but were instead children of the devil.

 

Amen! Ephesians 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for/unto the day of redemption.

Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

 

Some people jump to the conclusion that John is talking about believers committing certain sins that lead them to spiritual death, but that does not seem to fit the context. 1 John 5:16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death. 18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; (does not [deliberately and knowingly] practice committing sin - AMPC) but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.

 

In Heaven can God keep you from hell ? Is this a prison cell ? Would you cry for freedom ? Is this a violation of freewill in heaven . Is God a prison warden ? What is wrong with you ? What Christian now is begging to be let go so they can go to hell . " oh please God stop holding me safe , I demand my freedom to burn forever. " this has to be the most insane argument for freewill I've heard. Of course we have freewill but why is it so abhorrent for God to save someone now ?

 

The hope of eternal life (Titus 3:7) is not some wishy washy cross your fingers kind of hope. Unlike the english word "hope," the N.T. word contains no uncertainty; it speaks of something that is certain. - Strong's #1680 elpís (from elpō, "to anticipate, welcome") – properly, expectation of what is sure (certain); hope. If we have saving faith in Christ then we have this hope. Faith is the substance of things hoped for.. (Hebrews 11:1).

In Philippians 2:12, notice that Paul said to "work out" your salvation and not "work for" your salvation. When we "work out" at the gym, we exercise to develop our body that we already have and not to get a body. Farmers "work out" the land, not in order to get the land, but to develop the land they already have.

The Greek verb rendered "work out" means "to continually work to bring something to completion or fruition." We do this by actively pursuing the process of ongoing sanctification, which is the result of being set apart for God's work and involves the process of being conformed to the image of Christ. This conforming to Christ involves the work of the person, but it is still God working in the believer to produce more of a godly character and life in the person who has already been justified by faith. Salvation by works is not being taught here. Verse 13 goes on to say, "for it is God who works in you, both to will and to do for His good pleasure."

Ongoing sanctification has no bearing on justification. That is, even if we don't live a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolute perfect life 100% of the time (which we won't) we are still justified by faith in Christ (Romans 5:1). Where justification is a legal declaration that is instantaneous, ongoing sanctification is a process. There are 3 tenses to salvation that works-salvationists often mix up. 1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification) 2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification) 3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification)

In regards to Hebrews 5:9, who obeys Him? The saved or the lost?

I've heard many works-salvationists use this verse to try and support salvation by works. What they do is write a blank check with the word "obey" then fill in whatever amount of works they feel are necessary to be saved, then call that obeying Him. *Yet only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved, and only believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by practicing righteousness and not sin (1 John 3:9-10). In either sense, only believers obey Him.

Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) and without faith its impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6), so unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much "so called" obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to obtain salvation by works. So in either sense, unbelievers do not obey Him.

 

Amen! From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works.