Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
I used to believe the
I'm not bound to a paradigm. Its just the bible for me .
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The Covenant of Redemption
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
George,
What do these say, literally?
" And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." ( Acts of the Apostles 13:48 ).
" But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." ( John 6:64-65 )
" Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47 He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God." ( John 8:46-47 ).
" Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:" ( John 10:24-27 ).
According to these passages, why does anyone believe?
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
Let's discuss that. Teach me now:
Does Acts 13:48, alone, tell us when they were ordained to eternal life? Yes or No.
Does Acts 13:48, alone, tell us why they were ordained to eternal life? Yes or No.
I realize you "can" point to other verses, but let's just take it one step at a time.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
No.
For that we have to go to Ephesians 1:4-5, which tells us when that happened.
In addition, Matthew 25:34 tells us "the when".
Tack on Revelation 13:8 and Revelation 17:8, and I think that should give a more complete answer.
Of course not.
For that we have to go to somewhere else that God declares the answer for that:
" Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
4 according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 in whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 that in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 that we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ." ( Ephesians 1:3-12 ).
There's your answer, George.
Just as it's been answered before, it is answered now.
According to the good pleasure of His will.
God ordains people to eternal life based on His own purposes, which, ultimately, lead to His glorification by the recipients of His grace for even bothering with them, when He should have rightfully cast them into Hell.
That is the purpose of election...
To take out of the nations a people for His namesake who will spend eternity praising Him for His mercy and grace, instead of reserving all of mankind for His judgment.
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Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
The answers are above .
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Why take it one step at a time?
We need to point to other parts of His word, because it all relates, George.
The "verse" does not tells us the answer to that question...
But other parts of His word do.
God's word is an amazing thing...
It all dovetails together and can tell us, as His children, the answers to any question we many have pertaining to our salvation.
That is what makes taking it all as a whole so important.
But, one cannot overlook the details, because each and every word is important.
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Okay Berry that's good but are you saying that the Bible does not give a paradigm??
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
I'm saying most Christians are following a paradigm.
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
Thank you.
Thank you.
Moving on (of course you can quote all the verses you please, but again, can you bear taking things one step at a time, and list all the verses you want later since these are fair questions which you've already seen fit to answer them with "yes" or "no"?)
Does Acts 13:48, alone, tell us what it is that ordained them, for example, a process VS a decree?
Does Acts 13:48, alone, tell us what ordained means?
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Why did they choose to believe, Barry?
Can you point to a Scripture that tells us why?
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
A hardened heart would be why some refuse to believe the truth. Just like those in Acts 13 . 46Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
Dave G
Well-Known Member
No.
Again, we have to go to other parts of God's word for our understanding.
No.
Again, Scripture must define Scripture:
" And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed." ( Acts of the Apostles 14:23 ).
" For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:" ( 1 Thessalonians 2:13 )
Now do you know what ordained means?
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
Those Gentiles disposed themselves to eternal life . They heard and did not harden their hearts. The parable of the sower also alludes to this process .
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Can you point to a verse that specifically tells us that a hardened heart is why some refuse to believe?
Dave G
Well-Known Member
How can anyone dispose themseves to eternal life, when there is none that seeks God ( Romans 3:10-18 )?
When men love darkness rather than light, and will not come to the light ( John 3:19-20 )?
Search the Scriptures, Barry.
For therein is the answer.
Here are some for reference:
Acts of the Apostles 16:14.
John 3:3.
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George Antonios
Well-Known Member
They can! That is, after that the Holy Ghost has begun convicting them.
None of his own initiative seeks after God, but when God initiates the process, some do seek him then, hence:
Isa_45:19 I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
Just type in ' hard hearts ' in a biblle app search . There's too many to list here .
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
Because each of those verses have a context.How can anyone dispose themseves to eternal life, when there is none that seeks God ( Romans 3:10-18 )?
When men love darkness rather than light, and will not come to the light ( John 3:19-20 )?
Search the Scriptures, Barry.
For therein is the answer.
Here are some for reference:
Acts of the Apostles 16:14.
John 3:3.
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