Hobie
Well-Known Member
The Bible has it all there, but we must prayerfully look, and ask Gods help to understand to fully grasp the nature of Christ.
Isaiah 9:6 King James Version (KJV) "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon His shoulder. and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."
How can we comprehend this, the mystery of the Godhead of the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ, come in the flesh, and how a mere child, born like other children, could also be "The everlasting Father."
1 Corinthians 12:3 King James Version (KJV)
"Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost."
The pre-existence of Christ or personal existence of Christ before his conception is shown in the Bible, but its a hard truth to wrap ones head around. Thus, this concept of Christ pre-incarnate or the pre-existence of Christ is very controversial, as people somewhat get confused with the "Title" which refers to Jesus or how He is shown such as the "First and the Last", the "Alpha and Omega" the "Holy One", the "Angel of the Lord". Now we must make clear, Jesus is not a created Angel. He is fully Man, fully God, the Messiah, the Christ, and Lord and Saviour. Jesus is Eternal. Jesus was never created. Jesus is Eternal as the Father and Holy Spirit are Eternal. Jesus has always been and always will be and scripture shows existed before He became the earthly child of Mary. Let us begin with the birth of Christ and we see in Matthew one of the titles, 'God with us'.
Matthew 1:23 King James Version (KJV)
"Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us."
Just as the prophecy in scripture foretold that from the house of David he would come of a virgin birth......
Isaiah 7:14 King James Version (KJV)
"Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel."
Here it is clear that Christ is God, but immediately we are posed with a question that must be answered. Did the Father create or "procreate" another "God?" If He did, This would mean it would be a sin to worship Jesus, because it would violate the first commandment!
Now we also have this, "Before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me." (Isaiah 43:10 King James Version (KJV))
The first commandment says,"Thou shalt have no other gods before Me." (Exodus 20:3 King James Version (KJV))
On two different occasions John was inclined to worship an angel. He was told by the angel, "See thou do it not: I am a fellow servant, and of they brethren that have the testimony of Jesus." (Revelation 19:10 King James Version (KJV))
Worship of a creature or even of a image/idol was clearly prohibited in the Bible. Worship of the Creator was another matter and we see it time and time again that Jesus accepted worship and was worthy to be worshipped. Of the Canaanite woman it was said, "Then came she and worshipped Him..." (Matthew 15:25 King James Version (KJV)).
When Thomas recognized Him as the risen Christ he said, "My Lord and my God." (John 20:28 King James Version (KJV)), and the four and twenty elders give worship to the Creator, "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created."(Revelation 4:11 King James Version (KJV))
Now in the resurrection the Bible tells us that men that are saved are equal to angels. "Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection."(Luke 20:36 King James Version (KJV))
Jesus was not equal to the angels He was equal to God, scripture repeatedly shows us this.
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:(Philippians 2:6 King James Version (KJV))
If we look further to the context in Philippians 2:5-8, we understand clearly what Paul is saying:
Talking of Jesus Christ, . . .'who being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.'
Clearly, Paul shows that he believes that Jesus had existed as a divine Being before His birth, and that He presented Himself in a manner to divest Himself of much of His glory, power, and prerogatives to become a lowly human being and to die to redeem humanity from its sins. Then we see the following in Hebrews which shows of Christ, 'angels of God worship him' and God says to the Son or Christ, 'Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever', so scripture lays out the path that the Holy Spirit can guide us into understanding.
"4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? 6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. 7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. 8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.."(Hebrews 1:4-8 King James Version (KJV)).
So wee how important worship is, and you have to look at this issue of worship closely, as God alone is entitled to supreme reverence and worship and man is forbidden to give to any other object the first place in his affections or his service or worship. No idols, no graven images, icons or amulets, nothing, not even another day in substitute of His holy day which He made for man at Creation.
Isaiah 9:6 King James Version (KJV) "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon His shoulder. and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."
How can we comprehend this, the mystery of the Godhead of the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ, come in the flesh, and how a mere child, born like other children, could also be "The everlasting Father."
1 Corinthians 12:3 King James Version (KJV)
"Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost."
The pre-existence of Christ or personal existence of Christ before his conception is shown in the Bible, but its a hard truth to wrap ones head around. Thus, this concept of Christ pre-incarnate or the pre-existence of Christ is very controversial, as people somewhat get confused with the "Title" which refers to Jesus or how He is shown such as the "First and the Last", the "Alpha and Omega" the "Holy One", the "Angel of the Lord". Now we must make clear, Jesus is not a created Angel. He is fully Man, fully God, the Messiah, the Christ, and Lord and Saviour. Jesus is Eternal. Jesus was never created. Jesus is Eternal as the Father and Holy Spirit are Eternal. Jesus has always been and always will be and scripture shows existed before He became the earthly child of Mary. Let us begin with the birth of Christ and we see in Matthew one of the titles, 'God with us'.
Matthew 1:23 King James Version (KJV)
"Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us."
Just as the prophecy in scripture foretold that from the house of David he would come of a virgin birth......
Isaiah 7:14 King James Version (KJV)
"Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel."
Here it is clear that Christ is God, but immediately we are posed with a question that must be answered. Did the Father create or "procreate" another "God?" If He did, This would mean it would be a sin to worship Jesus, because it would violate the first commandment!
Now we also have this, "Before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me." (Isaiah 43:10 King James Version (KJV))
The first commandment says,"Thou shalt have no other gods before Me." (Exodus 20:3 King James Version (KJV))
On two different occasions John was inclined to worship an angel. He was told by the angel, "See thou do it not: I am a fellow servant, and of they brethren that have the testimony of Jesus." (Revelation 19:10 King James Version (KJV))
Worship of a creature or even of a image/idol was clearly prohibited in the Bible. Worship of the Creator was another matter and we see it time and time again that Jesus accepted worship and was worthy to be worshipped. Of the Canaanite woman it was said, "Then came she and worshipped Him..." (Matthew 15:25 King James Version (KJV)).
When Thomas recognized Him as the risen Christ he said, "My Lord and my God." (John 20:28 King James Version (KJV)), and the four and twenty elders give worship to the Creator, "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created."(Revelation 4:11 King James Version (KJV))
Now in the resurrection the Bible tells us that men that are saved are equal to angels. "Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection."(Luke 20:36 King James Version (KJV))
Jesus was not equal to the angels He was equal to God, scripture repeatedly shows us this.
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:(Philippians 2:6 King James Version (KJV))
If we look further to the context in Philippians 2:5-8, we understand clearly what Paul is saying:
Talking of Jesus Christ, . . .'who being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.'
Clearly, Paul shows that he believes that Jesus had existed as a divine Being before His birth, and that He presented Himself in a manner to divest Himself of much of His glory, power, and prerogatives to become a lowly human being and to die to redeem humanity from its sins. Then we see the following in Hebrews which shows of Christ, 'angels of God worship him' and God says to the Son or Christ, 'Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever', so scripture lays out the path that the Holy Spirit can guide us into understanding.
"4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? 6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. 7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. 8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.."(Hebrews 1:4-8 King James Version (KJV)).
So wee how important worship is, and you have to look at this issue of worship closely, as God alone is entitled to supreme reverence and worship and man is forbidden to give to any other object the first place in his affections or his service or worship. No idols, no graven images, icons or amulets, nothing, not even another day in substitute of His holy day which He made for man at Creation.