The Pre-incarnate Christ

[Hobie]

In Revelation 12, Michael is shown as the leader of the angels in the fight against Satan, and then later in Revelation 19, it says it is Jesus who leads the charge as 'The armies of heaven followed him.'

The work described in Revelation 12:7-9 is the work of Christ himself, and look at this...

(Revelation 20:1-3)
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

and compare who fights with the dragon...

(Revelation 12:7-9)
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Then as we in the Old Testament you can find where God is referred to as an angel. It was "the angel of the LORD" that helped Hagar in the desert, but yet she would say, "Have I really seen God and lived to tell about it?" Genesis 16:7,13

It was "the LORD's angel" who came to Gideon, but during the conversation it was "the LORD" who answered Gideon, and Gideon asked, "Give me some proof that you are really the LORD." Judges 6:11,16,17.

Finally, who led the Israelites through the desert? "My angel will go ahead of you and take you into the land of the Amorites" (Exodus 23:23) But yet Paul says that the One who led the Israelites through the desert was none other than Jesus! "And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ." (1 Corinthians 10:4)

Now Scripture is clear, that there is only one God, who is, who was, and who is to come as we see in the Old Testament.

Deuteronomy 6:4-5
The Lord is our God, the Lord is one! You shall love the Lord your God, with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.

Now, God does not allow worship to anyone but Him.

Exodus 34:14
For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

Twice in Revelation, John was forbidden to fall at the feet of the angel (Revelation 19:10) and (Revelation 22: 8-9) However, when Joshua met the angelic general (Joshua 5:3-15), he was not forbidden from performing this act of worship. Instead, just like the encounter of Moses with God at the burning bush, Joshua was told to take off his shoes because he was standing on holy ground. This leader of the angels was God.

Here is more from my friend GC at Maritime....
'The word "Michael" occurs but twice in the New Testament, once each in Jude and Revelation. Also, the word "archangel" occurs but twice in the entire Bible. However, the words "Michael" and "archangel" are clearly tied in Jude.

The word "archangel" is the word which throws people off most. The fact that "angel" is usually considered a created being is the tricky part. We forget the real meaning of "angel." The word means "messenger of God." Here is the full definition of "angel" from the Greek word, according to my Strong's Concordance:

angelos, n. angel, messenger; this can refer to a human messenger, such as John the Baptist, or messengers sent by John the Baptist or Jesus, or to the supernatural class of being that serves God: the angel:-- angel [96], angels [80], messenger [4], messengers [3], angel's [2]

Now I would ask two questions: 1) Was Jesus a human? and 2) Was Jesus a messenger, sent by God? My answers to both of these are in the affirmative. So, by this definition, one could even have used the term "angel" for Jesus. However, there is nothing in the definition of "angel" which implies that it must be a created being! (Here is where our traditional concepts can throw us off the track of truth.)

Now, apart from that little side-trip, I will not hereafter attempt to call Jesus an angel, for it is to be noted that the Bible does not try to confuse us by doing this. The Bible writers were careful to use the term for beings other than God Himself, unlike the term "son of man" which can be applied to Jesus, to Ezekiel, or to any number of men.

However, the term "archangel" is not the same Greek word as "angel." As previously noted, it is used but twice. The definition in the concordance is not helpful, saying that the word means "archangel" with no additional information. From that, I might safely conclude that the word is not fully understood. When I find that word in the dictionary, it says archangel means "an angel of the highest order," and that the prefix "arch-" means "chief" or "principal," which to me still leave questions.

It is said that "archangel" means "over all the angels." If you accept this, then the being that is "over" the angels may or may not be an angel himself--simply their superior.

Now, laying the definitions themselves aside, let's look at the identity of Michael. On this point, we can be very clear. There can be no mistake as to who Michael is.

Michael is mentioned in Daniel 10:13. "But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: bu, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes [marginal note: Or, the first], came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia."

In Daniel 12:1, Michael is further identified: "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people...and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book."

So, Michael is "the great prince" who stands "for the children of thy people." Who is this prince? Just three chapters earlier, we read this: "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks..."

So, here we have a clear reference to "THE Prince." We know who the Messiah is--that is Jesus. We also know that "prince" means the son of a king. I don't see how the angels (the created messengers of heaven) would be called by this term, do you? So to me, it is quite clear.

Now, if you accept that "archangel" means "over the angels," how many would fit this description? Certainly, Jesus would fit. But we also have God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. Depending now on whether or not an angel could also fill this position, perhaps you would have Gabriel (or even other commanding angels). So depending on the definitions (is God "one" or "three"; does Gabriel count), each one may interpret the number of archangels differently.

In conclusion:

1. Messiah is "the Prince."
2. Archangel means "over the angels" or "commander of the angels."
3. Jesus is the Messiah.
4. Jesus, as God, is over the angels (archangel).
5. Jesus pre-existed His earthly existence (John 1:1-14).
6. Jesus did not create Himself (this would be impossible)!
7. Jesus created everything; He is the Creator (Col. 1:14-16).'

 

[Hobie]

Here's a historic Church statement on Christ. Notice, he is one divine person with two natures. One human and the other divine. We often mistake saying he is fully man and fully God but this assigns to him, two persons instead of one.

THE SYMBOL OF CHALCEDON


The Symbol of Chalcedon, adopted at the fourth and fifth sessions of the Fourth Ecumenical Council, dates back to 451 A.D.. Philip Schaff, in his Creeds of Christendom, writes of the Symbol (or Creed) of Chalcedon, “While the first Council of Nicaea had established the eternal, pre-existent Godhead of Christ, the Symbol of the Fourth Ecumenical Council relates to the incarnate Logos, as he walked upon earth and sits on the right hand of the Father. It is directed against the errors of Nestorius and Eutyches, who agreed with the Nicene Creed as opposed to Arianism, but put the Godhead of Christ in a false relation to his humanity.”3



We, then, following the holy Fathers, all with one consent, teach men to confess one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, the same perfect in Godhead and also perfect in manhood; truly God and truly man, of a reasonable [rational] soul and body; consubstantial [coessential] with us according to the manhood; in all things like unto us, without sin; begotten before all ages of the Father according to the Godhead, and in these latter days, for us and for our salvation, born of the Virgin Mary, the mother of God, according to the Manhood; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, to be acknowledged in two natures, inconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; the distinction of natures being by no means taken away by the union, but rather the property of each nature being preserved, and concurring in one person and one Subsistence, not parted or divided into two persons, but one and the same Son, and only begotten, God the Word, the Lord Jesus Christ, as the prophets from the beginning [have declared] concerning him, and the Lord Jesus Christ himself has taught us, and the Creed of the holy Fathers has handed down to us.


Historic Creeds and Confessions. (1997). (electronic ed.). Oak Harbor: Lexham Press.

What Does the Bible Say About Jesus Christ Fully Man Fully God?
I think that you have many who would not agree with your contention, may have to start a separate thread...

 

[JonC]

The creeds say he is one divine person (God) with two natures. One Human and one divine.
“Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, ‘Sacrifice and offering thou wouldst not, but a body hast thou prepared me:” Hebrews 10:5 (NCPB)

Yes, one person. Fully human and fully God. Not more than human in His humanity and not less God in His divinity.

The Word was God and then the Word became flesh. God became man.

My question, to be clear, is if you are advocating heresy on this board. The doctrine can be tricky and I am in no way trying to trap you.

I am asking if you believe Christ was fully human and fully God (not two persons or two personalities in one body). I am not even asking to go into "nature's".

I just need to know if you reject the doctrine that Christ is fully human and fully God. I believe we are to be clear where we stand. I personally do not care if you do (it would make an interesting debate). But if that is your position then membership criteria needs to be evaluated by the administration.

 

[1689Dave]

Yes, one person. Fully human and fully God. Not more than human in His humanity and not less God in His divinity.

The Word was God and then the Word became flesh. God became man.

My question, to be clear, is if you are advocating heresy on this board. The doctrine can be tricky and I am in no way trying to trap you.

I am asking if you believe Christ was fully human and fully God (not two persons or two personalities in one body). I am not even asking to go into "nature's".

I just need to know if you reject the doctrine that Christ is fully human and fully God. I believe we are to be clear where we stand. I personally do not care if you do (it would make an interesting debate). But if that is your position then membership criteria needs to be evaluated by the administration.

How can the symbol of Chalcedon be heresy? It defines heresy. Have you read it?

 

[1689Dave]

What Does the Bible Say About Jesus Christ Fully Man Fully God?
I think that you have many who would not agree with your contention, may have to start a separate thread...

The symbol of Chalcedon defines it after many debates with the best heretics. Who do you side with?

 

[37818]

Well lets look into that, we have ''archangel'' the Greek "ἀρχάγγελος" literally "chief angel" which appears twice in the New Testament in the phrase "with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God" (1 Thessalonians 4:16} and in relation to "Michael" the ''archangel'' (Jude 9). The corresponding Hebrew word in the Old Testament is found in two places as in "Michael, one of the ''chief princes' '(Dan 10:13) and in "Michael" the ''great prince''(Daniel 12:1). Now we see that Jesus is the 'Angel of the Lord' and clearly is the great I AM, so now lets look at Michael the Archangel.

Now lets look closer in the verse in Jude.

(Jude 1:9) Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

In verse 4 and 8 Jude denounced false prophets who crept into the church, claiming to be messengers of Christ, which he tells us,“ "denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ." and "despise dominions".” That is to say, they despise the fact that God is God, despise and refuse to bow to Christ the Lord. It appears he is talking about the Gnostic sects who were sowing confusion even at this time about the diety of Christ.

Jude then goes on in verse 9 to show Christ pre-incarnate who as Michael shows up in the Bible in direct conflict with Satan.

But we see more when we look at Zechariah 3:

(Zechariah 3:1-5) And he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.(2) And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?(3) Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.(4) And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.(5) And I said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the LORD stood by.

Here, he stands before the Lord God and yet Joshua is here said to be “standing before the "Angel of the Lord”". In verse 3 we read, “"Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments", and stood before the Lord.”— In verse 5 Zechariah says,“and the "Angel of the Lord stood by".”

The Angel of the Lord standing by is Jesus Christ, the Son of God. Now, he is not one of the angelic hosts that he created. He is called “the Angel of the Lord,” because he is Jehovah’s Messenger, the Angel of the covenant.

The One who is called,“the Angel of the Lord” in verse 1, is Jehovah himself. We know that because he is called,“the Lord”(Jehovah) in verse 2. This Man who is God, the Angel of the Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ, is our almighty Advocate and effectual Intercessor (Heb. 7:24-27; 1 John 2:1-2).

Notice that again he says the same words as Christ "And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan"

Joshua said nothing. Joshua did nothing. He stood in silence before the Angel of the Lord; and the Lord pleaded his cause, and he definitely shows the Angel as “one who is God”.(Micah 7:8-9, 18-20).

In both Jude 9 and Zech 3:1-2 it is Jesus, the *angel of the LORD* who is also Michael the archangel, contending with Satan for both Moses and Joshua.

Its clear that Jude is quoting from Zechariah 3:2. "And the Lord said to Satan,'the Lord rebuke you".
Zechariah and Jude have both the Lord and Michael the archangel say the exact same thing, "the lord rebuke you".. This identifies both beings for us...

Now lets look at the relevant text in Daniel:

(Daniel 10:13)
13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

(Daniel 10:20-21)
20 Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.
21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

Now Daniel was told by the angel Gabriel that here the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me. Now I have to go back and fight the guardian angel of Persia. After that the guardian angel of Greece will appear. There is no one to help me except Michael, Israel's guardian angel. He is responsible for helping and defending me.

Later Daniel refers to him as 'the great prince' Daniel 12:1 and as we see in Jude he is called 'the archangel' when he disputed with Satan over the body of Moses. It is the voice of the archangel, this title given to Michael, who is associated with the raising of the dead at the 2nd coming. "There will be the shout of command, the archangel's voice, the sound of God's trumpet, and the Lord himself will come down from heaven. Those who have died believing in Christ will rise to life first. (1 Thessalonians 4:16)

The relationship between the resurrection and Michael is reinforced in Daniel when, 'at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people:' many of those who have already died will live again. Daniel 12:1,2

But scripture tells us that it is Christ's voice that will raise the dead. 'The dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear it will come to life' the time is coming when all the dead will hear his voice and come out of their graves.

(John 5:25-29)
"25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

Again we see the connection as to who is Michael the Archangel 'One who is like God'

All good arguments by which one can conclude Michael is our preincarnate Christ. Now angels have been called sons of God. There is no doubt the Angel of the LORD in Zechariah 3:1-2 is our perincarnate Christ (John 1:18).. But the definitive argument the archangel is not our preincarnate Christ is two fold, 1) In the final Revelation of Jesus Christ Michael is not Jrsus Christ, 2) God never calls any angel His Son, Hebrews 1:5.

 

[JonC]

How can the symbol of Chalcedon be heresy? It defines heresy. Have you read it?

It is not, and that is not the question.

The question is do you deny that Christ is fully man and fully God? That is all I am asking and it is a simple "yes or no" answer.

Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood.

Yes or no?

 

[1689Dave]

It is not, and that is not the question.

The question is do you deny that Christ is fully man and fully God? That is all I am asking and it is a simple "yes or no" answer.

Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood.

Yes or no?

All of the cult books use the creeds to weed out cults from The Church. It's your problem to disagree with them, not mine.

 

[37818]

It says he had a fully human nature and a fully divine nature but one person (God).
“Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, ‘Sacrifice and offering thou wouldst not, but a body hast thou prepared me:” Hebrews 10:5 (NCPB)

We agree as He being one person, He in His Incarnation He has two natures human and being God. What we may disagree on, since it is missing in the irregular church creeds, as the Logos being the Son He always had two natures prior to Him changing one of His natures to become a man. How He was always "with" the God changed, John 1:2, John 1:14, to be "made flesh." He did not change His nature being God. But He changed! Malachi 3:6.

 

[37818]

If you think he had two persons, one human and one divine you end up in Nestorianism condemned a couple of times as heresy. He is One Person (God) with to natures. One fully human and the other fully divine.

He has always been one person the Son of God being the Word/Logos being always "with" the God, John 1:2 and always "was God," John 1:1.

 

[37818]

If you think he had two persons, one human and one divine you end up in Nestorianism condemned a couple of times as heresy. He is One Person (God) with to natures. One fully human and the other fully divine.

Never thought any such thing. The Son of God is one Person and has always been one Person.. His divine nature never changed. But how He was "with" the God, John 1:2 did change, John 1:14, to be "made flesh."

 

[JonC]

All of the cult books use the creeds to weed out cults from The Church. It's your problem to disagree with them, not mine.

Are you unable to answer the question or are you unwilling?

I was not elevating that creed (the Athanasian Creed) to the level of Scripture by any means, but with any board we have certain presuppositions that are shared among members. Aspects of the doctrine of the trinity can be debates (what constitutes "person", "nature", etc.) but this board presupposes the doctrine of the Trinity.

I again ask you, is Christ "Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood"? Is Christ, as orthodox Christianity insists, fully God and fully man?

 

[Hobie]

All good arguments by which one can conclude Michael is our preincarnate Christ. Now angels have been called sons of God. There is no doubt the Angel of the LORD in Zechariah 3:1-2 is our perincarnate Christ (John 1:18).. But the definitive argument the archangel is not our preincarnate Christ is two fold, 1) In the final Revelation of Jesus Christ Michael is not Jrsus Christ, 2) God never calls any angel His Son, Hebrews 1:5.

I am not trying to argue the issue, I am only giving you what is in the Word of God. Take a look a the following at the resurrection at the Second Coming:

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 King James Version (KJV)
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


John 11:24-25 King James Version (KJV)
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

John 11:40-45 King James Version (KJV)
40 Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?
41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.
42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.
43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.
45 Then many of the Jews which came to Mary, and had seen the things which Jesus did, believed on him.

As we see in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 it states that at the Second Coming the Lord shall descend with a shout, with the voice of the Archangel. If as scripture says the Lord shouts with a voice it must be his voice. The Lord is the Archangel who descends, and as He did with the resurrection of Lazarus, this voice raises the dead and only God can raise the dead.

Paul frequently refers to Jesus as `Lord' in such a way as to identify him as, or equate him with, the Lord (Jehovah) of the Old Testament.... Paul says that Christians hope to be found `blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ ', (1 Corinthians 1:8; see also 5:5), whereas the Old Testament spoke of that judgment day as the day of the Lord (Jehovah) (Joel 1:15; 2:1, 11, 31).... Paul's language clearly refers to Jesus as if he were Jehovah.

Thus Jesus as the Lord (Jehovah) shows Himself in the position as leader of the angelic host at the day of judgement, or Second Coming. It all comes together, Michael represents the pre-existent Jesus in angelic form, the Lord of the Host, before He came down, and as the One who gave Himself for salvation after sin came in, He also in scripture reveals Himself as the Messiah or Christ, as seen in the Second Coming. Scripture clearly shows that Christ is God, the great I AM, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, Jehovah...but he also was the Angel of the Host, Michael the Archangel and there is no conflict here. This is his title when He led His angels in heaven and threw out Satan and when he come to take the saints and put Satan away forever. Scripture, if you look closely, clearly reveals this and shows us who He is....

 

[Yeshua1]

There is only one arch that is the first angel. The uncreated Angel of the LORD is prior to all.

Michael was a created being!

 

[Yeshua1]

I have long held that the Acrhangel Michael is not the preincarnate Son of God. But I am not opposed to that understand that the Archangel is the eternal Son of God. "Who is Like God."

Jesus returns with the angel Michael, they are 2 seperate beings!

 

[Yeshua1]

There is only one arch that is the first angel. The uncreated Angel of the LORD is prior to all.

He was the eternal Word, who now is forever God Man Jesus!

 

[Yeshua1]

No. He has always been one Person who has always been both "with" the God, John 1:1-2 and "was God," John 1:1, John 1:3 and John 1:10. The only thing that changed when He became fully a man, John 1:14 is how He was "with" the God. The Son never ceased being God too.

One Person dual natures!

 

[Yeshua1]

Fully human is a different Christ not supported by scripture. It means Christ was multiple personalities = two people in one body = crazy. The creeds nailed it and any departure from them makes you a heretic according to the whole Church.

2 natures in one person, fully God and fully man, do you refuse your own Creeds now?

 

[Yeshua1]

= two persons = Nestorianism = heresy.

Jesus is both God and Man!

 

[Yeshua1]

Are you unable to answer the question or are you unwilling?

I was not elevating that creed (the Athanasian Creed) to the level of Scripture by any means, but with any board we have certain presuppositions that are shared among members. Aspects of the doctrine of the trinity can be debates (what constitutes "person", "nature", etc.) but this board presupposes the doctrine of the Trinity.

I again ask you, is Christ "Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood"? Is Christ, as orthodox Christianity insists, fully God and fully man?

One person, with 2 natures!