The Pre-incarnate Christ

In Revelation 12, Michael is shown as the leader of the angels in the fight against Satan, and then later in Revelation 19, it says it is Jesus who leads the charge as 'The armies of heaven followed him.'

The work described in Revelation 12:7-9 is the work of Christ himself, and look at this...

(Revelation 20:1-3)
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

and compare who fights with the dragon...

(Revelation 12:7-9)
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Then as we in the Old Testament you can find where God is referred to as an angel. It was "the angel of the LORD" that helped Hagar in the desert, but yet she would say, "Have I really seen God and lived to tell about it?" Genesis 16:7,13

It was "the LORD's angel" who came to Gideon, but during the conversation it was "the LORD" who answered Gideon, and Gideon asked, "Give me some proof that you are really the LORD." Judges 6:11,16,17.

Finally, who led the Israelites through the desert? "My angel will go ahead of you and take you into the land of the Amorites" (Exodus 23:23) But yet Paul says that the One who led the Israelites through the desert was none other than Jesus! "And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ." (1 Corinthians 10:4)

Now Scripture is clear, that there is only one God, who is, who was, and who is to come as we see in the Old Testament.

Deuteronomy 6:4-5
The Lord is our God, the Lord is one! You shall love the Lord your God, with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.

Now, God does not allow worship to anyone but Him.

Exodus 34:14
For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

Twice in Revelation, John was forbidden to fall at the feet of the angel (Revelation 19:10) and (Revelation 22: 8-9) However, when Joshua met the angelic general (Joshua 5:3-15), he was not forbidden from performing this act of worship. Instead, just like the encounter of Moses with God at the burning bush, Joshua was told to take off his shoes because he was standing on holy ground. This leader of the angels was God.

Here is more from my friend GC at Maritime....
'The word "Michael" occurs but twice in the New Testament, once each in Jude and Revelation. Also, the word "archangel" occurs but twice in the entire Bible. However, the words "Michael" and "archangel" are clearly tied in Jude.

The word "archangel" is the word which throws people off most. The fact that "angel" is usually considered a created being is the tricky part. We forget the real meaning of "angel." The word means "messenger of God." Here is the full definition of "angel" from the Greek word, according to my Strong's Concordance:

angelos, n. angel, messenger; this can refer to a human messenger, such as John the Baptist, or messengers sent by John the Baptist or Jesus, or to the supernatural class of being that serves God: the angel:-- angel [96], angels [80], messenger [4], messengers [3], angel's [2]

Now I would ask two questions: 1) Was Jesus a human? and 2) Was Jesus a messenger, sent by God? My answers to both of these are in the affirmative. So, by this definition, one could even have used the term "angel" for Jesus. However, there is nothing in the definition of "angel" which implies that it must be a created being! (Here is where our traditional concepts can throw us off the track of truth.)

Now, apart from that little side-trip, I will not hereafter attempt to call Jesus an angel, for it is to be noted that the Bible does not try to confuse us by doing this. The Bible writers were careful to use the term for beings other than God Himself, unlike the term "son of man" which can be applied to Jesus, to Ezekiel, or to any number of men.

However, the term "archangel" is not the same Greek word as "angel." As previously noted, it is used but twice. The definition in the concordance is not helpful, saying that the word means "archangel" with no additional information. From that, I might safely conclude that the word is not fully understood. When I find that word in the dictionary, it says archangel means "an angel of the highest order," and that the prefix "arch-" means "chief" or "principal," which to me still leave questions.

It is said that "archangel" means "over all the angels." If you accept this, then the being that is "over" the angels may or may not be an angel himself--simply their superior.

Now, laying the definitions themselves aside, let's look at the identity of Michael. On this point, we can be very clear. There can be no mistake as to who Michael is.

Michael is mentioned in Daniel 10:13. "But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: bu, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes [marginal note: Or, the first], came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia."

In Daniel 12:1, Michael is further identified: "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people...and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book."

So, Michael is "the great prince" who stands "for the children of thy people." Who is this prince? Just three chapters earlier, we read this: "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks..."

So, here we have a clear reference to "THE Prince." We know who the Messiah is--that is Jesus. We also know that "prince" means the son of a king. I don't see how the angels (the created messengers of heaven) would be called by this term, do you? So to me, it is quite clear.

Now, if you accept that "archangel" means "over the angels," how many would fit this description? Certainly, Jesus would fit. But we also have God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. Depending now on whether or not an angel could also fill this position, perhaps you would have Gabriel (or even other commanding angels). So depending on the definitions (is God "one" or "three"; does Gabriel count), each one may interpret the number of archangels differently.

In conclusion:

1. Messiah is "the Prince."
2. Archangel means "over the angels" or "commander of the angels."
3. Jesus is the Messiah.
4. Jesus, as God, is over the angels (archangel).
5. Jesus pre-existed His earthly existence (John 1:1-14).
6. Jesus did not create Himself (this would be impossible)!
7. Jesus created everything; He is the Creator (Col. 1:14-16).'

 

What Does the Bible Say About Jesus Christ Fully Man Fully God?
I think that you have many who would not agree with your contention, may have to start a separate thread...

 

I am not trying to argue the issue, I am only giving you what is in the Word of God. Take a look a the following at the resurrection at the Second Coming:

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 King James Version (KJV)
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


John 11:24-25 King James Version (KJV)
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

John 11:40-45 King James Version (KJV)
40 Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?
41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.
42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.
43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.
45 Then many of the Jews which came to Mary, and had seen the things which Jesus did, believed on him.

As we see in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 it states that at the Second Coming the Lord shall descend with a shout, with the voice of the Archangel. If as scripture says the Lord shouts with a voice it must be his voice. The Lord is the Archangel who descends, and as He did with the resurrection of Lazarus, this voice raises the dead and only God can raise the dead.

Paul frequently refers to Jesus as `Lord' in such a way as to identify him as, or equate him with, the Lord (Jehovah) of the Old Testament.... Paul says that Christians hope to be found `blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ ', (1 Corinthians 1:8; see also 5:5), whereas the Old Testament spoke of that judgment day as the day of the Lord (Jehovah) (Joel 1:15; 2:1, 11, 31).... Paul's language clearly refers to Jesus as if he were Jehovah.

Thus Jesus as the Lord (Jehovah) shows Himself in the position as leader of the angelic host at the day of judgement, or Second Coming. It all comes together, Michael represents the pre-existent Jesus in angelic form, the Lord of the Host, before He came down, and as the One who gave Himself for salvation after sin came in, He also in scripture reveals Himself as the Messiah or Christ, as seen in the Second Coming. Scripture clearly shows that Christ is God, the great I AM, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, Jehovah...but he also was the Angel of the Host, Michael the Archangel and there is no conflict here. This is his title when He led His angels in heaven and threw out Satan and when he come to take the saints and put Satan away forever. Scripture, if you look closely, clearly reveals this and shows us who He is....