Where do the dead go?

[George Antonios]

Old Testament saints did not go to heaven when they died.
They went to Abraham's bosom and paradise.
Abraham's bosom is not heaven. It's underground, in the heart of the earth, one level above hell.
Christ led captivity captive out of the heart of the earth, and up to heaven, after his resurrection.
Now that the cross has happened, believers do not go to a waiting place, their soul goes directly up to heaven.
Such clear differences practically prove that Old Testament salvation was not the same as New Testament salvation.

 

[timtofly]

Such clear differences practically prove that Old Testament salvation was not the same as New Testament salvation.

Yes, they were more patient than NT believers who preached everything was soon, near at hand. Salvation and Atonement was one act on the Cross. There is no difference because the one single act was for all. Those in the OT still had faith and trust. Today we still have faith and trust. The OT lived it. Today the church hardly does anything. The more blessed we are, the more complacent we become. Can you imagine a Job today, crying, "but I go to church 4 times a week. I pay twice the tithe, I do more for the church than most do." "Why me Lord?" I have heard of lots of Jobs friends as modern day church goers. They still blame sin for everything that goes wrong. So it is still explained away as punishment from God.

Those in the OT were still banned from the Garden by the Angel with the flaming sword. They could not, even in Faith, get past. Only the Atonement presented to the Father by the Son in the temple, on the alter, opened the temple so Adam's descendants could enter back in to Paradise. The Lamb's book of life was sealed even before creation, however, Jesus Christ still had to physically die to create the Lamb's book of life. That was God's plan. Life with faith and trust was no different than now. They had to wait in Abraham's bosom, until the Cross opened Paradise back up. Paradise was created after God rested. It did not exist until after everything else was created and already in existence. It was never a come to freely place. It was the Home of Adam and Eve and all their descendants to live in. Ironically after the Flood, only Adam's descendants lived on earth and Paradise was removed to heaven, because no one could enter it and it would have been a huge waste of land. There would be no Mediterranean Sea nor ME, if Paradise was still on earth taking up all that space. Besides, it would just be rebellion against God instead of faith and trust. Humans would complain that this huge blocked off area that was also miles high interrupted normal life.

Most people forget the practical aspect of not being able to enter Paradise and how much physical space it would take up if it was on earth. It would just be weird if there was a physical entrance where dead bodies would be taken and Jesus Christ would process their entrance causing some to be sent down an open tunnel into sheol and the others coming back to life and walking into Paradise.

 

[Van]

God's redemption plan was formulated before creation, just as His Redeemer, His Lamb, was chosen before creation. The Redemption Plan did not change, no one comes to the Father except through Christ. Now the OT saints had to wait until the propitiation of Christ became available, so the redemption plan before Christ had an extra step, that is all.

Bottom line, unless God accepts the faith of the lost, they remain lost forever. The OT saints gained approval through faith accepted by God.

 

[JonC]

"Where do bad folks go when they die?

They don't go to heaven where the angels fly. They go down to the lake of fire and fry. Won't see 'em again till the fourth of July."

 

[37818]

Old Testament saints did not go to heaven when they died.
They went to Abraham's bosom and paradise.
Abraham's bosom is not heaven. It's underground, in the heart of the earth, one level above hell.
Christ led captivity captive out of the heart of the earth, and up to heaven, after his resurrection.
Now that the cross has happened, believers do not go to a waiting place, their soul goes directly up to heaven.
Such clear differences practically prove that Old Testament salvation was not the same as New Testament salvation.

Two comments. First, the captive believers before the cross were not taken to Heaven until after Christ's bodily ascenson, Ephesisan 4:8.
Secondly, not all the lost dead went to the lower place of Hades/Sheol per Deuteronomy 32:22. What is revealed in the Revelation, Revelation 20:13. Now the earth and its sea that was is gone, Revelation 20:11. And some of the lost dead come from what is called the sea and death, Revelation 20:13. Notice in the Judgement, some of the religous and lost do not understand that they were never saved, Matthew 7:21-23. And also Matthew 25:41-45.

 

[George Antonios]

Two comments. First, the captive believers before the cross were not taken to Heaven until after Christ's bodily ascenson, Ephesisan 4:8.
Secondly, not all the lost dead went to the lower place of Hades/Sheol per Deuteronomy 32:22. What is revealed in the Revelation, Revelation 20:13. Now the earth and its sea that was is gone, Revelation 20:11. And some of the lost dead come from what is called the sea and death, Revelation 20:13. Notice in the Judgement, some of the religous and lost do not understand that they were never saved, Matthew 7:21-23. And also Matthew 25:41-45.

On the first, it's possible, but Christ ascended twice. He ascended once to appear before the Father [when he wouldn't let Marry touch him] then came back down and this time let the apostles touch him. So I'm not sure at which of the two ascensions he took them up.
On the second, that's a good point, and I rather agree, but I'm not sure yet what to make of that "sea" because I haven't studied it enough to my satisfaction, so I played it safe.

Thanks for the constructive comments.

 

[37818]

. . . but Christ ascended twice.

That is an unBiblical interpreation in my understanding. So I must strongly disagree. It is my understanding Christ ascended only once prior to His second appearing, Hebrews 9:28. To be our mediator, Hebrews 9:24; 1 Timothy 2:5-6. Hebrews 9:12, ". . . Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once* into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us." That very word translated "once" means "once for all," as used in Hebrews 10:10, ". . . By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." Same word same meaning.

 

[37818]

[when he wouldn't let Mary touch him]

John 20:17, "Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend* unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." KJV, the NASB, correctly has, "Stop clinging to Me, . . ."

Now the difficulty is how Jesus said, "I acseend" it is in the frist person present active indicative. But Jesus did not so acsend until Acts of the Apostles 1:11. (John 16:7-11, Acts of the Apostles 1:8) That is my understanding.

 

[George Antonios]

That is an unBiblical interpreation in my understanding. So I must strongly disagree. It is my understanding Christ ascended only once prior to His second appearing, Hebrews 9:28. To be our mediator, Hebrews 9:24; 1 Timothy 2:5-6. Hebrews 9:12, ". . . Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once* into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us." That very word translated "once" means "once for all," as used in Hebrews 10:10, ". . . By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." Same word same meaning.

I don't dispute that he offered his blood once, nor does my initial interpretation necessarily imply that Christ went in twice into the holiest to offer his blood.
Just that he went up twice to heaven. In fact, the Lord can come down and up to heaven as often as he very well pleases.

 

[George Antonios]

John 20:17, "Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." KJV, the NASB, correctly has, "Stop clinging to Me, . . ."

The NASB is a poor translation that unfortunately messes up the meaning of the passage. The KJB has the correct reading, based on the best manuscripts.

 

[37818]

Just that he went up twice to heaven. In fact, the Lord can come down and up to heaven as often as he very well pleases.

Then once for all does not men once for all in Hebrews 9:12, and that so would also negate Hebrews 10:10 too. We do not agree here.

 

[37818]

The NASB is a poor translation that unfortunately messes up the meaning of the passage. The KJB has the correct reading, based on the best manuscripts.

The Greek text is not at issue. . . . απτου . . . . touching, clining, verb present middle imperative second person. And is the only place in the NT that verb is used in that way.

 

[George Antonios]

The Greek text is not at issue. . . . απτου . . . . touching, clining, verb present middle imperative second person. And is the only place in the NT that verb is used in that way.

What Greek text? Why that one? What about other manuscripts? etc etc.

 

[George Antonios]

Then once for all does not men once for all in Hebrews 9:12, and that so would also negate Hebrews 10:10 too. We do not agree here.

Are you saying that Christ, once he comes out of there, because he will for his second coming, will never again enter the holiest of the temple for all eternity?

 

[37818]

What Greek text? Why that one? What about other manuscripts? etc etc.

I agree that the larger issue between the KJV/AV and the NASB is choices of manuscript variants. And sometimes issues of choice of tranlating a text too. But in the case of John 20:17 the NASB is correct. Touch versus touching, that verb is only used once that way in the whole NT. My understanding of John 20:17 is framed by my understanding of Hebrews 9:12, Hebrews 9:24 and Hebrews 9:28 in Christ's role as that Man.

 

[37818]

Are you saying that Christ, once he comes out of there, because he will for his second coming, will never again enter the holiest of the temple for all eternity?

Yes. According to 1 Thessalonians 4:17 ". . . and so shall we ever be with the Lord." And Revelation 20:4-6; 1 Corinthians 15:27-28; And Revelation 21:1.