Was The Apostle Paul Willing To Give Up His Salvation?

[tyndale1946]

Romans 9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

9:2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.

9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

I have heard this said in over my 50 years in the church, not by our brethren, that The Apostle Paul was willing, if it were possible to give up his Salvation, so his brethren that didn't have it could be saved?... The question is, is the reference to saved or unsaved men?... What does Paul mean, accursed from Christ?... Just because these brethren Paul spoke of had judicial blindness does not mean they were not Gods born again children... Brother Glen

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

 

[canadyjd]

That is what Paul is saying. I don’t see how it makes sense otherwise.

To say these folks were blinded about the truth of Jesus, yet were born again children of God goes against many passages of scripture.

peace to you

 

[Reformed]

I have no issue taking Paul at his word, even though forsaking his salvation was an impossibility.

 

[Dave G]

For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh

The question is, is the reference to saved or unsaved men?

I see him having a genuine burden on his heart for his brethren according to the flesh, the nation of Israel who are not saved.

I also see him stating that he could wish himself accursed from Christ for them...
Not that he would, but that he could.

I've also found myself thinking this way when I wish for the salvation of others, Glen.
Not that I would, but that I could.

But I also know that the gift of eternal life cannot be forfeited or lost, because the Lord loves ( Ephesians 2:1-6, 2 Timothy 2:19, 1 John 4:19 ) and keeps His own ( 1 Peter 1:5 ).

 

[Dave G]

What does Paul mean, accursed from Christ?

Cast into Hell.

Just because these brethren Paul spoke of had judicial blindness does not mean they were not Gods born again children

I think that it does indeed mean this.
Here's where I see some of the evidence for it:

" But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38 that the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them." ( John 12:37-40 ).

" And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables:
12 that seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and [their] sins should be forgiven them." ( Mark 5:11-12 ).

I see these ( and others ) stating that judicial blindness ( being able to see and hear God's words ) is often called, "reprobation", and it is done primarily to Israel as a nation until the fullness of Gentile believers are come into the body of Christ.

To me that means that they are not all Israel, which are of Israel ( Romans 9:6-8 ).
They are not all the children of God just because they are all physical descendants of Abraham.

 

[utilyan]

Romans 9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

9:2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.

9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

I have heard this said in over my 50 years in the church, not by our brethren, that The Apostle Paul was willing, if it were possible to give up his Salvation, so his brethren that didn't have it could be saved?... The question is, is the reference to saved or unsaved men?... What does Paul mean, accursed from Christ?... Just because these brethren Paul spoke of had judicial blindness does not mean they were not Gods born again children... Brother Glen

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

Christians are suppose to be GOOD.

Christians are suppose to care for others more than themselves.


Ever heard a Calvinist say he's willing to give up his elected seat for someone else?

 

[canadyjd]

Christians are suppose to be GOOD.

Christians are suppose to care for others more than themselves.


Ever heard a Calvinist say he's willing to give up his elected seat for someone else?

Since Paul authored, by Holy Spirit, much of scripture that affirms the doctrines of grace he clearly was willing to give up his “elected” seat for others.

No need to call me names, I understand you disagree.

peace to you

 

[utilyan]

Since Paul authored, by Holy Spirit, much of scripture that affirms the doctrines of grace he clearly was willing to give up his “elected” seat for others.

No need to call me names, I understand you disagree.

peace to you

Yeah....... clearly not Calvinist.

I've only heard Calvinist like Piper throw their own kid under the bus. Maybe you might be the first one willing to go to hell for another person?

 

[canadyjd]

Yeah....... clearly not Calvinist.

I've only heard Calvinist like Piper throw their own kid under the bus. Maybe you might be the first one willing to go to hell for another person?

Paul was already the first.

peace to you

 

[JD731]

Cast into Hell.


I think that it does indeed mean this.
Here's where I see some of the evidence for it:

" But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38 that the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them." ( John 12:37-40 ).

" And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables:
12 that seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and [their] sins should be forgiven them." ( Mark 5:11-12 ).

I see these ( and others ) stating that judicial blindness ( being able to see and hear God's words ) is often called, "reprobation", and it is done primarily to Israel as a nation until the fullness of Gentile believers are come into the body of Christ.

To me that means that they are not all Israel, which are of Israel ( Romans 9:6-8 ).
They are not all the children of God just because they are all physical descendants of Abraham.

Typology!

Exo 32:31 And Moses returned unto the Lord, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
33 And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

Absolutely an amazing statement!

Rom 9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites....

Where did God find two men such as this, one in the OT and one in the NT who could so accurately picture the person of Jesus Christ, who did suffer the curse here mentioned because the scripture says "cursed is everyone who hangeth on a tree."

1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Side Note
Being dead to sins does not carry the Calvinist meaning of death. It does not mean we cannot sin. Calvinists need to reassess their doctrine of death because it is a source of many of their false doctrines.

Paul, a man born out of due time, he says, is typical on several fronts. Those who understands the ways of God in typifying all his great spiritual truths with physical illustrations might look at Paul as being born again after the partial blindness of Israel as that small remnant of Jews on which he built his gentile church. You must remember that Paul was partially blinded on the Damascus Road when he was converted by the light of Christ. His greatest enemies during his whole ministry were his own people but God illustrated through him how the hope of the Israelite people was kept alive by the NT church of Jesus Christ. This man and his ministry has much more depth than any one of us can possibly know and I suggest a study of his life for incredible spiritual insights, with the help of the Holy Ghost. I am amazed by this man in what little bit God has allowed me to understand.

Ga 6:11 Ye see how large a letter I have written unto you with mine own hand.

 

[Dave G]

Christians are suppose to be GOOD.

They are, and it's because the Lord is the one who makes believers into good people by His own standards.
Their is no innate goodness in man.
He alone is the one who makes people just ( righteous ).

He alone is the one who changes the hearts and minds, not us.
Our works have nothing to do with it...

We rest on His mercy and grace alone.

Christians are suppose to care for others more than themselves.

Amen.

Ever heard a Calvinist say he's willing to give up his elected seat for someone else?

Yes, I have.
I'm one of them.

So was Paul...

Romans 9:1-5.
Romans 10:1-2.

But Paul wasn't a "Calvinist";
He was an apostle by the will of God.

 

[Dave G]

I've only heard Calvinist like Piper throw their own kid under the bus.

Have you ever read this, utilyan?

" Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36 And a man’s foes [shall be] they of his own household.
37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it." ( Matthew 10:34-39, AV ).

" Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.
35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law;
36 and a man’s foes will be those of his own household.
37 He who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he who loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me;
38 and he who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.
39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for my sake will find it." ( Matthew 10:34-39, RSV-CE ).


I've never met anyone who truly loves the Lord with all their heart,
tell me that, if given the choice, they would choose their son or daughter over Him.

Maybe you might be the first one willing to go to hell for another person?

That's what being a Christian is all about, utilyan...

Preferring others above one's self, especially fellow believers.
Paul was.

At the same time, we love Jesus Christ more than anyone else.