Featured But what about death?

Yeshua1 · Sep 10, 2020

asterisktom said: ↑

I have had people quote Rev. 21:4 to me as if it was the silver bullet against my monstrous Preterism.

"He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death."

But this overlooks that there are different definitions of death. They also overlook that the no-more-death argument is a greater problem for them, because Christ said

"Everyone who lives in me and believes in me will never ever die." John 11:26

Now the futurist, according to their own eschatology, believes that every single believer in Christ has died since then.

So this statement goes into the same category of Jesus' other pronouncement that that "generation would not pass away until all these things take place" and "There are some standing here who shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom".

The futurist - of many different stripes - tends to redefine the terms here ("death", "generation", "some standing here shall not taste of death") in accordance with their presupposed eschatology.

The Preterist has no problem with these passages.
Christ did certainly come within that generation.
It was indeed the last days (per Paul and Peter), the last hour (per John).
The death of John 11:26 was obviously spiritual death.
The "no more death" of Revelation 21:4 concerned that terminal generation. When Christ came Hades/Abraham's bosom was opened and the living saints were raptured. For those saints there truly was no more death of either type.

But Scripture nowhere asserts that there would be no more death on Earth after that time. In fact, passages like Isaiah 65:20 and Rev. 14:13 proves the opposite.
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There is still yet future our physical resurrection!

asterisktom · Sep 10, 2020

Yeshua1 said: ↑

There is still yet future our physical resurrection!
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You cannot prove that from Scripture. Neither the "physical" nor the "future" part. As I wrote above, we will have the same spiritual bodies those resurrected and raptured saints had in the first century, but it will be when we leave this life.

Van · Sep 10, 2020

Sometimes a word or phrase as two or more meanings. When we consider their textual usage, it is important we decide on which meaning is intended in this context.

1) Sanctification - set apart for a godly purpose or being made holy and blameless.
2) Baptism - spiritual baptism into Christ by the Spirit or water baptism as a public declaration of faith by human hands.
3) Death - to be spiritually dead, separated from God in a sinful state or physical death.
4) Hell - Hades or Gehenna

When you see these terms in scripture, write "set apart" or made holy; spiritual or water; spiritually dead or physically dead and Hades or Gehenna in the margin.

Yeshua1 · Sep 10, 2020

asterisktom said: ↑

You cannot prove that from Scripture. Neither the "physical" nor the "future" part. As I wrote above, we will have the same spiritual bodies those resurrected and raptured saints had in the first century, but it will be when we leave this life.
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We will have the same body lord Jesus still has, the one of gloried flesh!

percho · Sep 10, 2020

asterisktom said: ↑

I am not sure what you are getting at. I mostly agree with what you wrote, but not the reason for bringing up the "dead in faith", or how it negates my position. But let me focus on this one section:

Yes, 1 Thess. 4:14 refers to the resurrection of Christ. But the event in verse 17 is long gone. The ones raised out of the dead were raised c. AD70, the ones living at that time were changed a micro-instant after. Does verse 17 refer to Christians today? Yes and no. The "yes" part is we also will be changed into the same form believers were changed to then. But for us it will not be via their respective routes (from Hades or while still living). For us it will be the moment we die.

Your question concerning Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is hard to parse out. I think you have several types of death in that one sentence. They all died in faith, per Hebrews 11, but per the words of Jesus to the Pharisees they were alive unto God.

"What about death?"

Which death?
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For as in the Adam all die, thus also in the Christ all shall be made alive. But each in his own rank: Darby 1 Cor 15:23, part of 24.

Would you please list the rank and state IYO when?

Derf B · Sep 11, 2020

asterisktom said: ↑

Ungranted. They have been really alive about 2000 years.

"And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God:‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.” Matt. 22:31-32
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Actually, since it is regarding the resurrection, they can’t be currently alive. Therefore Jesus describes what is going to happen, not what is already. You can’t resurrect someone who isn’t dead!

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