On Earth As It Is In Heaven

[Iconoclast]

Brother, even a broken clock is right twice a day, but that does not mean I use it to keep time. I am even becoming less of a fan of James White, even though James and I are aligned theologically. I think it has more to do with my increasing disdain for Christian celebrities.

There is always a proper caution to be had when using trusted guides and looking to people for help.
I think everyone starts out really well and just doing what they do and people desire their input.
What happens is the more they answer the more they do you know how it works ,you can get a little a little distracted you can get a little proud you know being able to answer a lot of people and help
. But another thing that happens is they get an unusual amount of criticism and very ungodly attacks even from professed Christians and it kind of it hurts them . It hurts them in a way that what they were originally doing to become sought out by other believers who want help. They begin to be affected so there's always that Danger.
I will expand on this when I get parked.

 

[Iconoclast]

Reformed,

[Brother, even a broken clock is right twice a day, but that does not mean I use it to keep time.]


I have not had a chance to meet or interact with Doug Wilson yet.
Let me say this about that. In the providence of God I was able to hear the Auburn Avenue conference messages when it all happened. I backed off right away as I was correctly alarmed at the teaching and direction of the conference.
I made a mental note to avoid Pastor Wilson as he did not sense the danger of that teaching as far as I could tell.
It is hard to know the thought process of a person as they attempt to be faithful to the scriptures.
It seems to me that although he was drifting in the wrong direction on Pauline theology, I think he has recovered himself fully in that when I heard this interview and his explanation, I think he was able to point out he was not even originally in lockstep with the others, and saw where they were going. He put the brakes on and re-examined the teaching.
I have myself modified some positions and that is an ongoing process. I do not have the gifts that some of these men exhibit, nevertheless my responsibility as a steward of truth still exists in my world. I need to be vigilant to test my conclusions by the best sources I can find.
In this postmill video... justification/sanctification is not in focus.

I have Steve Greggs 4 views, book. I have some of Ken Gentry on the shelf. If I ever escape this truck I would like to hunt him down and pick his brain if I have such an opportunity.
I recently picked up Doug Wilsons Misplaced Heaven paperback, which has some thought-provoking points.
At this point, that is how I use Pastors and teachers who offer teaching. I have some core ideas already from personal bible study and thousands of sermons.
When I read outside the bible, it is with the idea of having my preconceived ideas, improved or modified by more gifted Brothers. I do not have to quote these men word for word, but rather use what they offer and build upon it.
Other Christian teachers who are defective on the doctrines of grace, I will read or listen to see where they depart from the straight path as I have come to know it.
This can be useful as well, but I would prefer men who present Christ in His person and work in a God Glorifying way.

[I am even becoming less of a fan of James White, even though James and I are aligned theologically. I think it has more to do with my increasing disdain for Christian celebrities.]

With Dr. White it is more difficult for me because I do know him.
He has tried to step up and do what he has been requested to do by many people. When he teaches at a local assembly, either by preaching, lecture, power point presentation, He always brings His A-game.
If someone is going to disagree with him, they better have their ducks in a row or they will be mincemeat in short order.
I have seen and interacted with him on a few occasions and in person he has never failed to exhibit grace and kindness to those who come with objections and even attacks.
Over the past few years the attacks have been ungodly, personal and vicious.
He does not shrink back from engaging any and all comers.The programs he does dividing line, and radio free Geneva, have grown and it seems like he has tried to make them informative and entertaining to keep a base of supporters.
This is where Your caution and observation come into play.
If I see him again face to face, I will pray for an opportunity to address this issue face to face. raise the concern, and listen for a response. If God provides that opportunity I will certainly take it, and I would prefer to have such a conversation face to face.

Years ago my wife and I were traveling 1.5 hours to hear Pastor Martin in NJ. [maybe a 3 month period]
The ministry was growing and growing. I was able to briefly interact there and at the family bible conferences.
If I was not asking direct questions, I would be sort of, a fly on the wall listening to his responses to all who had questions.
people from a sister church[Carlisle} asked for advice on a matter. pastor martin and his co-elders sought to give biblical counsel.

In the long run, some people in Carlisle twisted what was offered, and it became a contentious issue causing a rift between the two churches.

What was meant to be, and started out as a good thing, turned into a sinful gossip-filled event.

Would the elders in Montville be somewhat reluctant to offer more advise?

Now I said that, to say this.

If Doug Wilson just remained silent in Idaho, or If James White remained silent in Phoneix would we survive....yes of course.
However, If I can learn and be edified and cautioned by them, I think I am still further ahead, then sort of a hermit, isolationist kind of believer we see on these message boards

I know your concern is more biblically grounded than several on here who would have little biblical base for such a concern.
I have not liked everything I have seen either.
This however can be healthy in that we are not, in the long run, to look as much to gifted persons rather than to God himself.

 

[kyredneck]

that very generation of Jesus' disciples to whom He spoke would be the generation He referred to in Matthew 24:34

Exactly. The threefold declaration of Christ’s words is plain:

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24:34

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, until all these things be accomplished. Mk 13:30

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lk 21:32

Good info:
Jesus on the Rapture of the Chruch

 

[Iconoclast]

I'm saying they know they are wildly, rashly guessing, and not only do they know that, THEY KNOW what they are saying is Not Bible Teaching.

THEY "KNOW WHAT THEY HAVE ARRIVED AT" THROUGH IMAGINATION.

IT'S NOT IN THE BIBLE.

Try finding a 'trib' or 'mill' this or that thingy mah-bob in these 66 verses,
JUST from The Gospels and New Testament without Revelation:

9.0.0 > NT Intro iv: SIXTY-SIX NEW TESTAMENT Verses Teach The SECOND COMING of JESUS CHRIST & THE END of TIME.

JESUS CHRIST IS COMING BACK, AS IN THE DAYS OF NOAH WERE.

Hello Alan,
Your link has many useful ideas and teaching. Thanks for sharing it.
That being said, God did not only give us 65 books, or 66 NT.verses.
He has given all 66 books, including many OT prophecies that need to be properly integrated.2tim.3:16-17
Each view seeks to answer all verses.

 

[Van]

Our Father who abides in His Heavenly kingdom, let us honor your every desire,
so that your will rules within us as it does in heaven

Let us study your word, so we know what you have said, and are thus able to teach others all that you have commanded.

 

[37818]

The Bible is also a book of History... Ancient History, not an imaginational journey, why don't some brethren use it?... Brother Glen

I do not know their thinking. And there may well be more than one reason.

 

[37818]

37818,

[A key argiment, is the interpretation that very generation of Jesus' disciples to whom He spoke would be the generation He referred to in Matthew 24:34. Where it is my understanding Jesus was speaking of those who would actually see the signs of the second appearing of the Son, Matthew 24:29-34, Revelation 6:12-17, Acts of the Apostles 1:11, Titus 2:13, Hebrews 9:28.]

Who do you think this is speaking of, and when?
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.


What generation?

What is vs.29 describing to you?

With the understanding there is only one second appearing (Hebrews 9:28), and being yet future, that generation of those future believers.

 

[Alan Gross]

Hello Alan,
Your link has many useful ideas and teaching. Thanks for sharing it.
That being said, God did not only give us 65 books, or 66 NT.verses.
He has given all 66 books, including many OT prophecies that need to be properly integrated.2tim.3:16-17
Each view seeks to answer all verses.

more-than-conquerors-an-interpretation-of-the-book-of-revelation.doc

This new book – “The Book of Revelation – A Study” – is available to download (as a Kindle e-book or pdf) As the footnotes in the book bear out, most of this new book is a bringing together of various commentaries on Revelation, leaning heavily on my favorite and very readable commentary, More Than Conquerors: An Interpretation of the Book of Revelation by William Hendriksen.

The Book of Revelation - A Study (eBook) | Monergism


A Redemptive-Historical, Modified Idealist Approach to the Book of Revelation. This is a great piece, explaining how to interpret Revelation in a manner that is consistent with the teaching of the whole Bible.

... The End Times in Revelation includes an excellent timeline of the Revelation and also points out common misinterpretations of the main symbols.

Shawn McGrath




I wrote a review of the High King of Heaven written by Dean Davis on Amazon. This is a book you will want to purchase for your library.

There have been a number of scholarly works written in the past on the topic of the end times from the Amillennial perspective including classic works by Geerhardus Vos & Antony Hoekema.

Over the last few years, a group of eschatologists have taken up the challenge to write books from the Amillennial perspective but focusing upon reaching the average Christian reader.

The High King of Heaven by Dean Davis is the latest work in this endeavour and has been one of the most successful in reaching this goal.

The High King of Heaven is a true systematic eschatology for the average man!

The HKOH simplifies the understanding of the bible’s message on the end times by dividing the outlook into three simple categories.

To understand what the bible says about the end times one must understand what it says about the Kingdom, the Millennium and the Consummation.

Davis then unpacks these three themes in three sections in the book simplifying how we are to view this important topic.

While writing with straightforwardness, the amount of topics and information that Davis addresses makes it unique.

There are very few volumes on eschatology out there that deal with the amount of subjects and scripture like this one.

The first section on the Kingdom was especially impressive.

Davis takes great care in addressing what the scriptures tell us about the Kingdom from both the Old and New Testaments.

What many eschatologists neglect or only address in passing is how the Old Testament Kingdom Prophecies are interpreted by the NT writer yet Davis takes the time to really explain the hermeneutical principles involved in interpreting these passages which he calls the New Covenant Hermeneutic.

He spends many pages clarifying how this principle works and why it is important.

Probably one of the most useful features of the book is Davis’ detailed treatment of various prophecies in Old Testament prophetic books including Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel and Zechariah.

This section alone is worth the book!

Davis then addresses the question of the millennium by talking about the literary genre, the structure of the book and some of the important symbols leading up to the famous 20th chapter.

While this is standard among works on Amillennialism, Davis does a fine job in presenting the classic affirmation of Revelation 20 from the Amillennial view with clarity and simplicity.

He also does a fine job in dealing with the other interpretations of this important yet difficult text.

The final section deals with the consummation.

Davis shows that on the topic of the consummation we must recognize that the resurrection, the final judgment and the cosmic renewal of all things happen at the 2nd coming of Christ.

He takes the time to exegete New Testament texts relating to the consummation demonstrating that the New Testament cannot allow a literal 1000 years after the 2nd coming of Christ.

Davis also addresses an often disregarded theme in the scriptures relating to end times mainly the last battle.

The final section is an overview of what other eschatological positions comprising of their view of the Kingdom, OTKP and the Revelation.

These positions include Historic Premillennialism, Dispensational Premillennialim, Postmillennialism, Preterism, and Christian Zionism.

Davis also provides a number of appendixes to help study out the important texts of scripture relating to the end times.

This book is a must-have for any serious student of scripture desiring to have a good foundation of the biblical end times.

I would even suggest that this should be a first read before delving into more complex scholarly works.

 

[Reformed]

Reformed,

[Brother, even a broken clock is right twice a day, but that does not mean I use it to keep time.]


I have not had a chance to meet or interact with Doug Wilson yet.
Let me say this about that. In the providence of God I was able to hear the Auburn Avenue conference messages when it all happened. I backed off right away as I was correctly alarmed at the teaching and direction of the conference.
I made a mental note to avoid Pastor Wilson as he did not sense the danger of that teaching as far as I could tell.
It is hard to know the thought process of a person as they attempt to be faithful to the scriptures.
It seems to me that although he was drifting in the wrong direction on Pauline theology, I think he has recovered himself fully in that when I heard this interview and his explanation, I think he was able to point out he was not even originally in lockstep with the others, and saw where they were going. He put the brakes on and re-examined the teaching.
I have myself modified some positions and that is an ongoing process. I do not have the gifts that some of these men exhibit, nevertheless my responsibility as a steward of truth still exists in my world. I need to be vigilant to test my conclusions by the best sources I can find.
In this postmill video... justification/sanctification is not in focus.

I have Steve Greggs 4 views, book. I have some of Ken Gentry on the shelf. If I ever escape this truck I would like to hunt him down and pick his brain if I have such an opportunity.
I recently picked up Doug Wilsons Misplaced Heaven paperback, which has some thought-provoking points.
At this point, that is how I use Pastors and teachers who offer teaching. I have some core ideas already from personal bible study and thousands of sermons.
When I read outside the bible, it is with the idea of having my preconceived ideas, improved or modified by more gifted Brothers. I do not have to quote these men word for word, but rather use what they offer and build upon it.
Other Christian teachers who are defective on the doctrines of grace, I will read or listen to see where they depart from the straight path as I have come to know it.
This can be useful as well, but I would prefer men who present Christ in His person and work in a God Glorifying way.

[I am even becoming less of a fan of James White, even though James and I are aligned theologically. I think it has more to do with my increasing disdain for Christian celebrities.]

With Dr. White it is more difficult for me because I do know him.
He has tried to step up and do what he has been requested to do by many people. When he teaches at a local assembly, either by preaching, lecture, power point presentation, He always brings His A-game.
If someone is going to disagree with him, they better have their ducks in a row or they will be mincemeat in short order.
I have seen and interacted with him on a few occasions and in person he has never failed to exhibit grace and kindness to those who come with objections and even attacks.
Over the past few years the attacks have been ungodly, personal and vicious.
He does not shrink back from engaging any and all comers.The programs he does dividing line, and radio free Geneva, have grown and it seems like he has tried to make them informative and entertaining to keep a base of supporters.
This is where Your caution and observation come into play.
If I see him again face to face, I will pray for an opportunity to address this issue face to face. raise the concern, and listen for a response. If God provides that opportunity I will certainly take it, and I would prefer to have such a conversation face to face.

Years ago my wife and I were traveling 1.5 hours to hear Pastor Martin in NJ. [maybe a 3 month period]
The ministry was growing and growing. I was able to briefly interact there and at the family bible conferences.
If I was not asking direct questions, I would be sort of, a fly on the wall listening to his responses to all who had questions.
people from a sister church[Carlisle} asked for advice on a matter. pastor martin and his co-elders sought to give biblical counsel.

In the long run, some people in Carlisle twisted what was offered, and it became a contentious issue causing a rift between the two churches.

What was meant to be, and started out as a good thing, turned into a sinful gossip-filled event.

Would the elders in Montville be somewhat reluctant to offer more advise?

Now I said that, to say this.

If Doug Wilson just remained silent in Idaho, or If James White remained silent in Phoneix would we survive....yes of course.
However, If I can learn and be edified and cautioned by them, I think I am still further ahead, then sort of a hermit, isolationist kind of believer we see on these message boards

I know your concern is more biblically grounded than several on here who would have little biblical base for such a concern.
I have not liked everything I have seen either.
This however can be healthy in that we are not, in the long run, to look as much to gifted persons rather than to God himself.

I have nothing personal against Doug Wilson and James White. I certainly do wish them ill. Wilson's theology has concerned me for some time. Perhaps he has changed his views. Good for him. I have not been interested enough to find out.

I greatly respect James White. No. I would not want to debate him. His brain operates at a higher level. I suppose my concern is more about the following he has garnered. Have you ever noticed that if someone is "our guy" they are immune from any all sorts of criticism? We see this in politics all the time. We just saw it in regards to other religious leaders who are caught in scandal. Their supporters will not accept anything less than praise. This is what happens with Christian celebrities. While I am not theologically aligned with the Plymouth Brethren, I understand why they are so resistant to having a lead pastor. I am not willing to go that far, but I understand it.

 

[Iconoclast]

I have nothing personal against Doug Wilson and James White. I certainly do wish them ill. Wilson's theology has concerned me for some time. Perhaps he has changed his views. Good for him. I have not been interested enough to find out.

I greatly respect James White. No. I would not want to debate him. His brain operates at a higher level. I suppose my concern is more about the following he has garnered. Have you ever noticed that if someone is "our guy" they are immune from any all sorts of criticism? We see this in politics all the time. We just saw it in regards to other religious leaders who are caught in scandal. Their supporters will not accept anything less than praise. This is what happens with Christian celebrities. While I am not theologiecally aligned with the Plymouth Brethren, I understand why they are so resistant to having a lead pastor. I am not willing to go that far, but I understand it.

Yes. That is the part that is hard to sort out.
People have a degree of liberty in how they live,the direction they go in.
You will never see me with a tatoo.
You will never see me leading a contemporary song service.
No earrings, No cigars.
My sons who are in law enforcement are instructed to shoot me if any of these symptoms manifest themselves.
What keeps me in check is that as I grow older I can see where I am, where I am going to be,and until I can figaure out more what God has for me,
I am trying to cultivate my own garden so to speak.
That being said,my filters are wearing out,lol and if the situation presents itself I will address the issue and present any caution that comes to mind.
Dr.White is working on some greek manuscripts which is beyond my pay grade.
Other Pastors I know are writing books,so I try not to distract them with my concerns.
I have noticed some of the "followers".
I think of that sort of like my facebook page.
I accept friends requests from some people who are unsaved, some religious, and other questionable persons.
They remain unless I see them posting F bombs, or other profane things.
I try and post gospel items,even like the postmill video in the middle of my other posts.
I have recently had to confront 3 relatives over the abortion issue....got unfriended by 2 out of the three.
Maybe Dr.White notices similar things among the "calvinist" club.He does not want to encourage the bad behavior, but he is trying to reach a young generation.
Jeff Durbin is a gifted and articulate spokesman and Pastor. He has a sort of person that identifies with him that many churches would frown upon.
Some of the answer here is in the details.
I personally look for the scriptures being opened.

 

[Iconoclast]

more-than-conquerors-an-interpretation-of-the-book-of-revelation.doc

This new book – “The Book of Revelation – A Study” – is available to download (as a Kindle e-book or pdf) As the footnotes in the book bear out, most of this new book is a bringing together of various commentaries on Revelation, leaning heavily on my favorite and very readable commentary, More Than Conquerors: An Interpretation of the Book of Revelation by William Hendriksen.

The Book of Revelation - A Study (eBook) | Monergism


A Redemptive-Historical, Modified Idealist Approach to the Book of Revelation. This is a great piece, explaining how to interpret Revelation in a manner that is consistent with the teaching of the whole Bible.

... The End Times in Revelation includes an excellent timeline of the Revelation and also points out common misinterpretations of the main symbols.

Shawn McGrath




I wrote a review of the High King of Heaven written by Dean Davis on Amazon. This is a book you will want to purchase for your library.

There have been a number of scholarly works written in the past on the topic of the end times from the Amillennial perspective including classic works by Geerhardus Vos & Antony Hoekema.

Over the last few years, a group of eschatologists have taken up the challenge to write books from the Amillennial perspective but focusing upon reaching the average Christian reader.

The High King of Heaven by Dean Davis is the latest work in this endeavour and has been one of the most successful in reaching this goal.

The High King of Heaven is a true systematic eschatology for the average man!

The HKOH simplifies the understanding of the bible’s message on the end times by dividing the outlook into three simple categories.

To understand what the bible says about the end times one must understand what it says about the Kingdom, the Millennium and the Consummation.

Davis then unpacks these three themes in three sections in the book simplifying how we are to view this important topic.

While writing with straightforwardness, the amount of topics and information that Davis addresses makes it unique.

There are very few volumes on eschatology out there that deal with the amount of subjects and scripture like this one.

The first section on the Kingdom was especially impressive.

Davis takes great care in addressing what the scriptures tell us about the Kingdom from both the Old and New Testaments.

What many eschatologists neglect or only address in passing is how the Old Testament Kingdom Prophecies are interpreted by the NT writer yet Davis takes the time to really explain the hermeneutical principles involved in interpreting these passages which he calls the New Covenant Hermeneutic.

He spends many pages clarifying how this principle works and why it is important.

Probably one of the most useful features of the book is Davis’ detailed treatment of various prophecies in Old Testament prophetic books including Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel and Zechariah.

This section alone is worth the book!

Davis then addresses the question of the millennium by talking about the literary genre, the structure of the book and some of the important symbols leading up to the famous 20th chapter.

While this is standard among works on Amillennialism, Davis does a fine job in presenting the classic affirmation of Revelation 20 from the Amillennial view with clarity and simplicity.

He also does a fine job in dealing with the other interpretations of this important yet difficult text.

The final section deals with the consummation.

Davis shows that on the topic of the consummation we must recognize that the resurrection, the final judgment and the cosmic renewal of all things happen at the 2nd coming of Christ.

He takes the time to exegete New Testament texts relating to the consummation demonstrating that the New Testament cannot allow a literal 1000 years after the 2nd coming of Christ.

Davis also addresses an often disregarded theme in the scriptures relating to end times mainly the last battle.

The final section is an overview of what other eschatological positions comprising of their view of the Kingdom, OTKP and the Revelation.

These positions include Historic Premillennialism, Dispensational Premillennialim, Postmillennialism, Preterism, and Christian Zionism.

Davis also provides a number of appendixes to help study out the important texts of scripture relating to the end times.

This book is a must-have for any serious student of scripture desiring to have a good foundation of the biblical end times.

I would even suggest that this should be a first read before delving into more complex scholarly works.

Thanks for sharing the link and book recommendation

 

[Alan Gross]

Thanks for sharing the link and book recommendation

O.K. Thank you.

I didn't know what else to do.

This statement has given me more trouble than any I have ever encountered,

"God did not only give us 65 books, or 66 NT.verses.
He has given all 66 books, including many OT prophecies that need to be properly integrated.2tim.3:16-17
Each view seeks to answer all verses."

I am thinking that, the 'Structure', or 'How God has Presented' various passages is vital.

Just as in the views I took on Matthew 24.

The Prophetic, Symbolic, Rich figures of speech are considered, as the are 'Presented' in the 'Structure' of other Old Testament and New Testament verses.

In the case of The Book of Revelation, believe it or not, just as the first 3 chapters of Genesis, and many areas through the Old Testament, The Seven Visions are each a separate 'Gospel', to use THAT word.

What I mean is that Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John can and HAVE been read straight through, (by apparently lost folks) and they come away with some wild ideas from doing that.

What they have done is skip the Historical fact that they are FOUR discourses about ONE LIFE, from different viewpoints.

Revelation is 'Structured' that way, too.

Each 'VISION' contains an account of The First Advent and The Second Advent and Coming of Jesus.

Guess what??????????????

If you have ever asked The Lord to resolve the puzzle, of "Each view seeks to answer all verses", then NOT READING THE REVELATION STRAIGHT THROUGH is A GREAT START.

I see 'the belief that God Has actually said something that we can understand' missing from your statement regarding 'each view', so far, however.

Each Vision begins and ends with "Jesus' Ascension to Heaven" and "Jesus' Second Coming".

That means God's "Presentation" of Revelation 'may be', AND IS,
Given in SEVEN SEPARATE VIEWPOINTS that EACH COVER THE SAME PERIOD of TIME.......

As a 'theory', then, "IF SO", the reading of one chapter after another is inconsistent with God's Intent.

9.0 >The INTERPRETATION of The SEVEN VISIONS in SEVEN SECTIONS of The BOOK of REVELATION, which UNLOCK and REVEAL THE REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST.