A Biblical Defense of Synergism #3

[Dave G]

But I was always a prodigal son in need of my savior and God. My heavenly Father and His Son Jesus Christ.

Amen.

As was I, Steven.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

But the Jews of John 8 heard the Gospel when the new covenant was established by Christ's death and resurrection. As Romans 9-11 explains they were provoked to jealousy by their obstinate actions, since even the Gentiles were entering the Kingdom before them. There repentance was still desired. For God has delivered all to disobedience so that He may have mercy on all.

1 John is talking of the tares among the wheat. Those in need of searching themselves to see they are not saved, their evil works show such.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

I want to remind everyone of the OP. That mankind appears to have moral ability to obey or disobey God. If God doesn't harden them. That said, I get better where Calvinism is coming from, but it seems we differ too much over the subtleties of theology, there is unlikely to be changing anyone's mind.

 

[Dave G]

But the Jews of John 8 heard the Gospel when the new covenant was established by Christ's death and resurrection. As Romans 9-11 explains they were provoked to jealousy by their obstinate actions, since even the Gentiles were entering the Kingdom before them. There repentance was still desired.

I agree.

For God has delivered all to disobedience so that He may have mercy on all.

Again I agree...
" For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all." ( Romans 11:32 ).

But don't forget about this:
" What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded ." ( Romans 11:7-8 ).

1 John is talking of the tares among the wheat. Those in need of searching themselves to see they are not saved, their evil works show such.

I agree.
So, based on Matthew 13 and 1 John, the tares are the children of the devil, are they not?

 

[Dave G]

That said, I get better where Calvinism is coming from, but it seems we differ too much over the subtleties of theology, there is unlikely to be changing anyone's mind.

Steven,

I prefer to talk about the Scriptures by themselves...
I'd also prefer to leave John Calvin, John Wesley and John R. Rice out of it.

But we can discuss anything you like, and who teaches what.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

I agree.

Again I agree...
" For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all." ( Romans 11:32 ).

But don't forget about this:
" What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded ." ( Romans 11:7-8 ).

I agree.
So, based on Matthew 13 and 1 John, the tares are the children of the devil, are they not?

Yes, but the scriptures are full of calls to examine yourself and our election. As a liberal Christian finding faith four years ago, I see tares can be wheat if they only trust the LORD with all their heart and put faith in the real Jesus Christ.

 

[Dave G]

Yes, but the scriptures are full of calls to examine yourself and our election.

Our "what"?

Election? ( "election" = "choosing" ).
Did I just read that right, Steven?

Yes, they are, and yes we should.

As a liberal Christian finding faith four years ago, I see tares can be wheat if they only trust the LORD with all their heart and put faith in the real Jesus Christ.

Per Matthew 7:21-23 and Matthew 13, I see that tares are people who think they are saved, but are not.
They are the children of the wicked one, and their "soil" has never been "plowed" by the Lord...

Which is why the seed never produces true spiritual fruit.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

Our "what"?

Election? ( "election" = "choosing" ).
Did I just read that right, Steven?

Yes, they are, and yes we should.

Per Matthew 7:21-23 and Matthew 13, I see that tares are people who think they are saved, but are not.
They are the children of the wicked one, and their "soil" has never been "plowed" by the Lord...

Which is why the seed never produces true spiritual fruit.

I was the rocky ground until faith in Jesus Christ, soils can change with the power of God.

This has been a good discussion on all three threads. I wish more would engage me in discussion, oh well.

 

[Dave G]

This has been a good discussion on all three threads. I wish more would engage me in discussion, oh well.

Steven,
I would be honored to engage you in discussion on any subject that you wish, and I promise to keep it civil.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

Steven,
I would be honored to engage you in discussion on any subject that you wish, and I promise to keep it civil.

Thank you.

 

[AustinC]

So far, there has been an apology for the doctrine of unlimited atonement. There has also been an apology for a doctrine that explains faith is not a work to boast of or that is due a wage. Now, I will explain an apology for a doctrine of Moral Ability.

Infused in scripture are moral choices God gives us. Usually they are calls to repentance or absolute obedience to God's commandments. Each of these moral choices is contingent on the actions of those called to decide between obedience (life) and disobedience (death).

Additionally, Jeremiah 18 even demonstrates an "if, then" structure to God's corporate judgments.

Jeremiah 18:7-10

7At any time I might announce that a nation or kingdom will be uprooted, torn down, and destroyed. 8But if that nation I warned turns from its evil, then I will relent of the disaster I had planned to bring.

9And if at another time I announce that I will build up and establish a nation or kingdom, 10and if it does evil in My sight and does not listen to My voice, then I will relent of the good I had intended for it.

These moral choices and "If, then" prophecies God gives us are not rare in scripture. They happen often, and the ultimate calls are to Israel to live by God's Torah, and later to believe in Jesus Christ and the Gospel. Now, of course, God knows all things. How is God knowing all things and mankind's moral ability possible? I will admit I do not know, His mind and ways are beyond me. However, this one paradox is not sufficient to deny mankind moral ability.

Also, we are never told in scripture that these moral choices have been predetermined by God except a few times as with Pharaoh or Judas Iscariot. There are also special cases of being chosen for blessing. Isaac, Jacob, and the first believers in Christ. Yet these special cases of blessing are mentioned in scripture.

So, why the so often repeated calls to choose morally and repent if it is impossible? The bible seems to assume moral ability to obey or disobey God. This goes all the way back to the Garden of Eden.

Here I will argue that it is a logical and straightforward reading of the text of the bible to have the impression that mankind has moral ability in regards to God's commands.

This does not mean the heart of mankind is good or any such malarkey. Man's will is not free. It is degraded, it is constrained by circumstances, and no one is saved except by God's mercy and grace to an individual.

However, when the strong appearance of mankind's moral ability throughout scripture is combined with scriptures that emphasize God's desire to save all people and the reality that faith is not a work deserving a wage. I hope I have an apology for what I and other synergists believe and why.

I believe I owe you one more thread to explain my position. I must explain how I interpret Romans 11 as referring to the first believers and the Jews of the day.

I have no idea how you see synergism, in relation to salvation, in Jeremiah 18:7-10. Nothing in this passage refers to eternal life.

 

[AustinC]

Are you entirely sure that you've seen all that the Scriptures have to say about His character?

There's quite a bit written from Genesis to Revelation...
The book of Job alone shocked me the first time I read it.
Yet, the God of the Old Testament is the same God of the New.

If I may ask,
How many times have you read the Bible from cover to cover in the 4 years or so that you've been a believer?

The book ends of Job:

Job 2:10 But he said to her, “You speak as one of the foolish women would speak. Shall we receive good from God, and shall we not receive evil?” In all this Job did not sin with his lips.

Job 42:11 Then came to him all his brothers and sisters and all who had known him before, and ate bread with him in his house. And they showed him sympathy and comforted him for all the evil that the Lord had brought upon him. And each of them gave him a piece of money and a ring of gold.

Who can understand the mind of God?

 

[AustinC]

I encourage you to sit down and begin a thorough reading of it.

Perhaps starting at Matthew and going all the way through to Revelation.
Then start at Genesis and go until Malachi.
Back to Matthew through Revelation, then hit the epistles from Romans through Jude.

No specific pattern to follow, but I find in my own studies that beginning and ending with whole books and letters is very profitable.

I will post a pdf of the reading approach I have been using this year. It has been a blessing. Often, I go for walks and listen as God's word is read (much like the people of Israel would listen to the reading at the temple). I have recently been listening to the Psalms. I really like hearing the Psalms. It's so moving.View attachment BibleReadingSchedule2020.pdf

 

[AustinC]

Ah, but sir, you missedd an important scripture concerning who is a child of God.

The Prodigal Son
11 And He said, “A man had two sons. 12 The younger of them said to his father, ‘Father, give me the share of the estate that falls to me.’ So he divided his wealth between them. 13 And not many days later, the younger son gathered everything together and went on a journey into a distant country, and there he squandered his estate with loose living. 14 Now when he had spent everything, a severe famine occurred in that country, and he began to be impoverished. 15 So he went and hired himself out to one of the citizens of that country, and he sent him into his fields to feed swine. 16 And he would have gladly filled his stomach with the pods that the swine were eating, and no one was giving anything to him. 17 But when he came to his senses, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired men have more than enough bread, but I am dying here with hunger! 18 I will get up and go to my father, and will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in your sight; 19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me as one of your hired men.”’ 20 So he got up and came to his father. But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion for him, and ran and embraced him and kissed him. 21 And the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight; I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’ 22 But the father said to his slaves, ‘Quickly bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet; 23 and bring the fattened calf, kill it, and let us eat and celebrate; 24 for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.’ And they began to celebrate.

25 “Now his older son was in the field, and when he came and approached the house, he heard music and dancing. 26 And he summoned one of the servants and began inquiring what these things could be. 27 And he said to him, ‘Your brother has come, and your father has killed the fattened calf because he has received him back safe and sound.’ 28 But he became angry and was not willing to go in; and his father came out and began pleading with him. 29 But he answered and said to his father, ‘Look! For so many years I have been serving you and I have never neglected a command of yours; and yet you have never given me a young goat, so that I might celebrate with my friends; 30 but when this son of yours came, who has devoured your wealth with prostitutes, you killed the fattened calf for him.’ 31 And he said to him, ‘Son, you have always been with me, and all that is mine is yours. 32 But we had to celebrate and rejoice, for this brother of yours was dead and has begun to live, and was lost and has been found.’”

The dead deserving wrath who are just "Lost sinners" are His children, even if they never accept His grace.

The prodigal is...a son, not a pagan, not from a different family. The prodigal is not a lost sinner. The prodigal is a son who needed to repent. The father waited for his son to return.
The story speaks to us, who have been redeemed and then go wandering...

 

[AustinC]

Amen.

As was I, Steven.

I see what you did here. Indeed, all who believe are prodigals.

 

[AustinC]

I want to remind everyone of the OP. That mankind appears to have moral ability to obey or disobey God. If God doesn't harden them. That said, I get better where Calvinism is coming from, but it seems we differ too much over the subtleties of theology, there is unlikely to be changing anyone's mind.

Humans certainly can obey or disobey rules. They do so for selfish reasons, based on what they think will benefit them the most.
Humans will not repent of this selfishness and submit willingly to the Supremacy of God. God must break their will and cause a man to submit. When God chooses to do this, a man cannot stop God from doing so.

 

[AustinC]

I was the rocky ground until faith in Jesus Christ, soils can change with the power of God.

This has been a good discussion on all three threads. I wish more would engage me in discussion, oh well.

Steven, you were always the seed. You were never the soil. Go re-read the parable.
God sows the seed. (Let that sink in.) God throws the seed on different soils (Is his toss accidental or haphazard?) The seed may lie dormant in good soil for a long time. God determines its growth.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

The book ends of Job:

Job 2:10 But he said to her, “You speak as one of the foolish women would speak. Shall we receive good from God, and shall we not receive evil?” In all this Job did not sin with his lips.

Job 42:11 Then came to him all his brothers and sisters and all who had known him before, and ate bread with him in his house. And they showed him sympathy and comforted him for all the evil that the Lord had brought upon him. And each of them gave him a piece of money and a ring of gold.

Who can understand the mind of God?

I'm going to say from the get go, I am trying to be respectful with all of my posts.

Job is afflicted by God for a nebulous reason, and God explodes at Job for thinking he knew enough to rule the creation. That said, Job's humble response does away with the Adversary's argument. I see Job as one of the most applicable and beautiful books of the bible. But I have suffered like Job just over a much longer time in my own life. I am not joking or being emotional. I am a 100% disabled man and have been for years. This on top of many other sufferings.

That said, I don't see how Job applies to the topic of predestined salvation or wrath.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

I will post a pdf of the reading approach I have been using this year. It has been a blessing. Often, I go for walks and listen as God's word is read (much like the people of Israel would listen to the reading at the temple). I have recently been listening to the Psalms. I really like hearing the Psalms. It's so moving.View attachment 4188

I would love to see it. Oops you posted it, thank you!

 

[Steven Yeadon]

The prodigal is...a son, not a pagan, not from a different family. The prodigal is not a lost sinner. The prodigal is a son who needed to repent. The father waited for his son to return.
The story speaks to us, who have been redeemed and then go wandering...

Whoa, that is a very original reading of the prodigal son to me. The context is given in Luke 15. We have the parables of the lost sheep and lost coin all to answer the critics of Jesus who complained he sought the salvation of "sinners." These critics appear to be the son that hated his prodigal brother. They do not understand the importance of their Hebrew brethren. Jesus is still going to the Jews at this point. The gospel to the Gentiles is not in full swing yet until after the great commission. The parable is an explanation of Jesus' ministry to the Jews seen as prodigal outcasts.