Why Proverbs 8:22 Cannot Refer to Jesus Christ. - For Non-Baptists

[Alofa Atu]

The word “'âmôn” Proverbs 8:30 KJB; H525, comes from H539,

אמן ; 'âman

Total KJB Occurrences: 110

believed, 21

Genesis 15:6, 45:26; Exodus 14:31 (2); Numbers 20:12; Deuteronomy 9:23; 1 Samuel 27:12; 1 Kings 10:7; 2 Chronicles 9:6; Job 29:24; Psalms 27:13, 78:22,32, 106:12,24, 116:10, 119:66; Isaiah 53:1; Jeremiah 40:14; Lamentations 4:12; Jonah 3:5​

faithful, 20

Numbers 12:7; Deuteronomy 7:9; 1 Samuel 2:35, 22:14; 2 Samuel 20:19; Nehemiah 9:8, 13:13; Psalms 12:1, 31:23, 89:37, 101:6; Proverbs 25:13 (2), 27:6; Isaiah 1:21,26, 8:2, 49:7; Jeremiah 42:5; Hosea 11:12​

believe, 19

Exodus 4:1,5, 19:8-9 (4); Numbers 14:11; Deuteronomy 1:32; 2 Kings 17:14; 2 Chronicles 20:20 (2), 32:15; Job 9:16, 39:12; Proverbs 26:25; Isaiah 43:9-10 (2); Jeremiah 12:6; Habakkuk 1:5​

sure, 11

1 Samuel 2:35, 25:28; 1 Kings 11:38; Job 24:22; Psalms 19:7, 93:5, 111:7; Isaiah 22:23,25, 33:16, 55:3​

established, 7

1 Samuel 3:20; 2 Samuel 7:16; 1 Chronicles 17:23-24 (2); 2 Chronicles 1:9, 20:20; Isaiah 7:9​

brought, 5

2 Kings 10:1; Esther 2:7,20; Proverbs 8:30; Lamentations 4:5​

believeth, 4

Job 15:22, 39:24; Isaiah 28:15-16 (2)​

trust, 4

Job 4:18, 15:15,31; Micah 7:5​

verified, 3

Genesis 42:20; 1 Kings 8:26; 2 Chronicles 6:17​

continuance, 2

Deuteronomy 28:59 (2)​

nurse, 2

Ruth 4:16; 2 Samuel 4:4​

nursing, 2

Numbers 11:12; Isaiah 49:23​

stedfast, 2

Psalms 78:8,37​

assurance, 1

Deuteronomy 28:66​

bringers, 1

2 Kings 10:5​

fail, 1

Jeremiah 15:18​

nursed, 1

Isaiah 60:4​

stand, 1

Psalms 89:28​

surely, 1

Hosea 5:9​

trusted, 1

Judges 11:20​

trusty, 1

Job 12:20 (2)​

… and is related to H542:

אמן ; 'âmân

Total KJB Occurrences: 2

cunning, 1

Song of Songs 7:1​

workman, 1

Song of Songs 7:1 (2)​

… and is related to H541:

אמן ; 'âman

Total KJB Occurrences: 1

right, 1

Isaiah 30:21​

… and is related to H540:

אמן (Aramaic) ; 'ăman

Total KJB Occurrences: 2

believed, 1

Daniel 6:23​

faithful, 1

Daniel 6:4​

"from everlasting" - Proverbs 8:23, H4480, H5769

“from”

מנּי / מנּי / מן ; min / minnı̂y / minnêy​

Total KJB Occurrences: 79

“everlasting”

עלם / עולם ; ôlâm​

Total KJB Occurrences: 79

“ever”

קדמה / קדם ; qedem / qêdmâh

Total KJB Occurrences: 99​

See parallels in:

Deuteronomy 33:27 KJB - The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms: and he shall thrust out the enemy from before thee; and shall say, Destroy them.

Habakkuk 1:12 KJB - Art thou not from everlasting, O LORD my God, mine Holy One? we shall not die. O LORD, thou hast ordained them for judgment; and, O mighty God, thou hast established them for correction.

Micah 5:2 KJB - But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.​

 

[Alofa Atu]

For those not desirous of lengthy and meticulous Bible study, here is the summary of the Key words and ideas:

Proverbs 8:22-31 KJB and elsewhere, speaks about "wisdom". This "wisdom" is the Son of God the Father as attested by local and global scriptural [KJB] context [ie, see 1 Corinthians 1:24 KJB], and many others in history, as cited in the main.

Some have taken the passage, and keywords therein, and have come to the erroneous conclusion that the Son of God is a created being [such are the WTS/JW, Arians, etc], or at the very least if not 'created', was brought into being by the Father by some unknown process [these persons speculatively vary about the manner], at some unspecified point in eternity past.

The words that are focused upon in Proverbs 8:22-31 KJB, are the words:

[1] "possessed [me]",
[2] "set up",
[3] "brought forth" [x2] and
[4] "him, as one brought up [with him]":​

The definitions of these words, in their immediate context eliminates any idea of the Son of God the Father being "created" or having come into existence at some point in eternity past, but teach that the Son of God the Father, was always and eternally with the Father, and never at any point in eternity past not in existence as the Son, and in the act of creation, as seen in Genesis 1, which Proverbs 8:22-31 KJB relates, it was by the instrumentatlity of the person of the Son, who was with the Father, that the person of the Father created the Heaven and the earth and the things thereof, for the Father spake in Genesis to the Son, and the Son made, and the person of Holy Ghost/Spirit moved in response to this:

"possessed [me]":

The context of Proverbs 8 KJB eliminates the meanings/uses of “buy”, “bought”, “get”, “purchased”, “buyer”, “getteth”, “got”, “buyest”, “attain”, “cattle” [property], “getting” [obtain, possess], “gotten” [obtained, received [a birth, Cain from Eve]], “jealousy”, “recover” [buy/purchase back at cost to oneself], “redeemed” [buy/purchase back at cost to oneself], “verily [buy]” [truly purchase at dear sacrificial cost], since the words “in the beginning of his way” [Proverbs 8:22 KJB], “I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning” [Proverbs 8:23 KJB], “I was there” [Proverbs 8:27 KJB], “Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;” [Proverbs 8:30 KJB], except it be connected to the redemption plan as it is in Christ Jesus, or to the effect that the Father exchanged words with the Son, and the Son believed the Father, or an interchange, exchange of ideas [like as merchandising], the Father sharing His will with the Son, and the Son rejoicing in that will.

The context of Proverbs 8 KJB thus helps us to know that the phrase “possessed me” carries with it the meanings of “possessor”, “possessors”, which is to intimately know through and through [such as the word “possession” is understood, such that the Holy Ghost/Spirit should possess the whole heart, lest devils occupy/possess it], or to completely occupy or dwell in fully [such as to “possess” the land/earth, and the heart is the like unto the soil], to be LORD or Master of [such as a Father unto a Son], to own [to belong to someone's person], to have all or the whole entirety of something such as the whole mind/heart/spirit.

The context of Proverbs 8 KJB thus helps us to know that the phrase “possessed me” carries with it the meanings of “keep” [raise cattle, like as to raise a sheep, like as a Lamb, the Lamb of God in the Father's care], “owner” [one who has a purchased possession, such as a cow or Lamb]. The image then is of a tender compassionate Father caring for His Son, holding the Son in His arms, close to His bosom [as Jesus had done with John], cherishing the relationship as Father to Son, see 2 Samuel 12:3 KJB for a pictoral type.​

"set up":

The context of Proverbs 8 KJB eliminates the meanings/uses of “molten” [to form], “melteth”, “offer” [as a sacrifice, or to pour out as in offering], “cover” [to place over], “pour” [out as in offering], “poured” [a drink offering, in anointing an object, etc.], except it be in the meaning of 'poured out upon', as in “anointed” [of the Holy Ghost/Spirit] from everlasting, as the Son of God is indeed, the “Christ” even before He is born [Matthew 2:4; Luke 2:11,26 KJB] and/or in the meaning of being the one chosen [and chose] to be “offer[ed]” in sacrifice from before all things were made; a life to be “poured out” as a gift for the redemption, for sin should it arise.

The context of Proverbs 8 KJB thus helps us to know that the phrase “set up” carries with it the meanings of “set”, but also dealing with the “anointed” heir and King.​

 

[Alofa Atu]

Summary continued

"brought forth" [x2]:

The context of Proverbs 8 KJB eliminates the meanings/uses of “pain”, “painful”, “pained”, “sorrow”, “grievous”, “grievously”, “grieved”, “fall [grievously]”, “great [pain]”, “anguish”, “afraid [troubled]”, “fear”, “wounded”, “tremble”, “trembled”, “shaketh”, “driveth”, “wounded” since the words “rejoicing always before him” [Proverbs 8:30 KJB], “Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.” [Proverbs 8:31 KJB] are associated, which would go with the meanings of “dance” and “danced”. The only way the other meanings may be included within the contextual definition, is in reference to the Son's Godly awesome reverential wonder at the beautiful and marvelous will of His eternal Father, and in the plan of redemption which included the cross. For instance, see “The fear of the LORD” - Proverbs 8:13 KJB.

The context of Proverbs 8 KJB also eliminates the meanings of 'giving birth' to, as meaning in coming into existence/world at some point in time, such as “travail”, “travailed”, “driveth” [as to push forward], “shapen”, “made”, “bring forth”, “brought [forth]”, “bare”, “calve”, “formed” since the words “The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way” [Proverbs 8:22 KJB], “I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning” [Proverbs 8:23 KJB], “I was there” [Proverbs 8:27 KJB] and “Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him.” [Proverbs 8:30 KJB]. The context declares that the Son had ever been with the Father from eternity, ever “with” Him. The only way the other meanings may be included within the contextual definition, is in reference to the Son's being born/made of a woman, taking upon Himself the flesh nature of mankind, and entering into the world through the miracle of “the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh” [1 Timothy 3:16 KJB].

The context of Proverbs 8 KJB thus helps us to know that the phrase “brought forth” carries with it the meanings of “stayed” [waited patiently or attended to another, as in 'waiting upon', or ever at the ready, ever at the right hand to obey, called upon to attend], “abide”, “hope” [quietly wait upon/for], “look” [towards, up to], “patiently”, “rest”, “tarried”, “trust”, “wait”, “waited”, since the words “When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:” [Proverbs 8:27 KJB], “When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:” [Proverbs 8:28 KJB], “When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:” [Proverbs 8:29 KJB], “Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;” [Proverbs 8:30 KJB; see also Psalms 40:8 KJB]. Thus when the eternal Father called for the eternal Son, the Son who ever waited upon the will of His Father, said, 'Yes, Father, here am I.' and thus the Son was brought to accomplish the Father's decrees.​

"him, as one brought up [with him]":

The Son was eternally the “fellow” [associate, companion, neighbour, etc] of the Father, for notice that it does not say that the Son became the fellow at any time past, but simply says, “the man, my fellow”:

Zechariah 13:7 KJB - Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.​

The Son is the eternal “help meet”, the “right hand of” [thus ever at His right hand] of the Father. The Son is the ever “faithful” one, the ever “obedient” one to His eternal Father, ever honouring His eternal Father's requests and commands, always “delight[ing]” [Proverbs 8:30; Psalms 40:8 KJB] in doing His will. Ever “rejoicing” in the will of His eternal Father. The Son eternally and ever “believes” the word of His eternal Father, and there is no doubt in the Son about the Father. When the eternal Father says, “My Son.” The Son says, “Here am I, my Father.” Most precious. Think of this eternal relationship. Pray right now. Doesn't your own hurt burn within you to be as the Son?

Thus on the whole, when the eternal Father was to create the Heaven and the earth in Genesis 1 [as recounted by Proverbs 8:22-31 KJB], implementing the plan of redemption which had been hid for eternity in the mind of God should sin arise as it had done in Lucifer's rebellion, the Father by His direction/command/will, He called for the eternal Son to implement that plan, and direction, and the anointed Son ever willing to obey and Honour His Father, rejoicing before His Father carried out the will of the Father and made ["and God made"] all things as specified by the Father ["and God said"], the Holy Ghost/Spirit moving ["the Spirit of God moved" and "saw" (the eternal witness)] in response to these things. Thus the Father made all things by His Son - by Wisdom, which had eternally been with the Father.​

 

[Alofa Atu]

Seventh-day Adventist particular, to combat the error of "two beings and three personalities":

The real truthful Adventist materials on Proverbs 8:22-31:

"... The world was made by him, "and without him was not anything made that was made." If Christ made all things, he existed before all things. The words spoken in regard to this are so decisive that no one need be left in doubt. Christ was God essentially, and in the highest sense. He was with God from all eternity, God over all, blessed forevermore. {RH, April 5, 1906 par. 6}

The Lord Jesus Christ, the divine Son of God, existed from eternity, a distinct person, yet one with the Father. He was the surpassing glory of heaven. He was the commander of the heavenly intelligences, and the adoring homage of the angels was received by him as his right. This was no robbery of God. "The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way," he declares, "before his works of old. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth; while as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth." {RH, April 5, 1906 par. 7}

There are light and glory in the truth that Christ was one with the Father before the foundation of the world was laid. This is the light shining in a dark place, making it resplendent with divine, original glory. This truth, infinitely mysterious in itself, explains other mysterious and otherwise unexplainable truths, while it is enshrined in light, unapproachable and incomprehensible. {RH, April 5, 1906 par. 8}

"Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God." "The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up." Here the pre-existence of Christ and the purpose of his manifestation to our world are presented as living beams of light from the eternal throne. "Now gather thyself in troops, O daughter of troops: he hath laid siege against us: they shall smite the Judge of Israel with a rod upon the cheek. But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." "We preach Christ crucified," declares Paul, "unto the Jews a stumbling-block, and unto the Greeks foolishness; but unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God." {RH, April 5, 1906 par. 9} …" - The Review and Herald April 5, 1906 paragraphs 6-9 (Ellen G. White)​

See also:

The Faith I Live By, p. 46.5

The Truth About Angels, p. 23.3

Selected Messages Book 1, p. 247.4

Lift Him Up, p. 16.4

That I May Know Him, p. 11.4

SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 5 (EGW), p. 1126.5

SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 7A (EGW), p. 440.3​

“... “Then said the Jews unto Him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast Thou seen Abraham?” “Verily, verily, I say unto you,” Jesus answered, “Before Abraham was, I am. Then took they up stones to cast at Him; but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.” Their eyes were blinded that they might not see Him. ST August 29, 1900, par. 12

“Before Abraham was, I am.” Christ is the pre-existent, self-existent Son of God. The message He gave to Moses to give to the children of Israel was, “Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.” The prophet Micah writes of Him, “But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, tho thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of Thee shall He come forth unto Me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.” ST August 29, 1900, par. 13

Through Solomon Christ declared: “The Lord possessed Me in the beginning of His way, before His works of old. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth.... When He gave to the sea His decree, that the waters should not pass His commandment; when He appointed the foundations of the earth; then I was by Him, as one brought up with Him; and I was daily His delight, rejoicing always before Him.” ST August 29, 1900, par. 14

In speaking of His pre-existence, Christ carries the mind back through dateless ages. He assures us that there never was a time when He was not in close fellowship with the eternal God. He to whose voice the Jews were then listening had been with God as one brought up with Him. ST August 29, 1900, par. 15 ...” - The Signs of the Times August 29, 1900 paragraph 14 (Ellen G. White)

See also:

The Truth About Angels, p. 23.4

Lift Him Up, p. 17.6​

“... Study carefully the first chapter in Patriarchs and Prophets. From this chapter, I quote: Lt256-1906 (August 1, 1906) par. 7

“The Sovereign of the universe was not alone in His work of beneficence. He had an associate—a co-worker who could appreciate His purposes, and could share His joy in giving happiness to created beings. ‘In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.’ Christ, the Word, the only begotten of God, was one with the eternal Father—one in nature, in character, in purpose, the only being that could enter into all the counsels and purposes of God. ‘His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, the Prince of peace.’ His ‘goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.’ And the Son of God declares concerning Himself: ‘The Lord possessed Me in the beginning of His way, before the works of old. I was set up from everlasting. When He appointed the foundations of the earth, then was I with Him, as one brought up with Him; and I was daily His delight, rejoicing always before Him.’ Lt256-1906 (August 1, 1906) par. 8

“The Father wrought by His Son in the creation of all heavenly beings. ‘By Him were all things created, ... whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers. All things were created by Him, and for Him.’ Angels are God’s ministers, radiant with the light ever flowing from His presence, and speeding on rapid wing to execute His will. But the Son, the anointed of God, the ‘express image of His person,’ ‘the brightness of His glory,’ ‘upholding all things by the word of His power,’ holds supremacy over them all. ‘A glorious high throne from the beginning,’ was the place of His sanctuary; ‘a scepter of righteousness,’ the scepter of His kingdom. ‘Honor and majesty are before Him. Strength and beauty are in His sanctuary.’ Mercy and truth go before His face. ... Lt256-1906 (August 1, 1906) par. 9

“So long as all created beings acknowledged the allegiance of love, there was perfect harmony throughout the universe of God.” But “there was one who perverted the freedom that God had granted to His creatures. Sin originated with him, who, next to Christ, had been honored of God, and was highest in power and glory among the inhabitants of heaven. Lucifer, ‘son of the morning,’ was first of ‘the covering cherubs, holy and undefiled.’ He it was who by transgression became Satan, ‘the adversary’ of God and holy beings, and the destroyer of those whom heaven had committed to his guidance and guardianship.” Lt256-1906 (August 1, 1906) par. 10 ...” - Patriarchs and Prophets, p. 34.1 (Ellen G. White)

See also:

Lift Him Up, p. 50.4

Christ Triumphant, p. 7.4

From Eternity Past, p. 9.2

Lt 256, 1906 (August 1, 1906) par. 8​

 

[Alofa Atu]

“... “Unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called, Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.” What is John’s testimony regarding Christ? “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him, and without him was not anything made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men. ... And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.” Ms37-1898 (March 10, 1898) par. 1

What is Christ’s testimony regarding Himself? “Before Abraham was, I am.” “I and my Father are one. For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth whom he will, even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son, that all men should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father.” Ms37-1898 (March 10, 1898) par. 2 ...

… Christ was an instructor, but in a simple and unassuming manner. Yet no one, looking upon the childlike countenance, shining with animation, could say He was just like other children. He was God in human flesh. And when urged by His companions to do a wrong action, His divinity flashed through humanity, and He spoke decidedly. In a moment He distinguished between right and wrong, and placed wrong actions in the light of God’s commandments, holding up the law as a mirror which reflected its light upon the wrong. It was this keen discrimination between right and wrong that often provoked Christ’s brothers. Yet His presence, the sorrow expressed in His countenance, His appeals and entreaties, revealed such a tender, earnest love for them, that they were ashamed that they had tempted Him to deviate from His strict sense of justice and nobility. Ms37-1898 (March 10, 1898) par. 11

“Who by searching can find out God?” Nearly two thousand years ago a voice of strange and mysterious import was heard from the throne of God; “Sacrifice and offering thou wouldst not, but a body hast thou prepared me.” “Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me, I delight to do thy will, O my God; yea, thy law is within my heart.” Ms37-1898 (March 10, 1898) par. 12

Who is this that was to come to our world and become incarnate? The only begotten Son of God. “Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same, that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death.” “The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old,” Christ says. “When he gave to the sea his decree that the waters should not pass his commandment: when He appointed the foundations of the earth: Then was I by Him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him.” But Christ humbled Himself to come to this earth. This was the hiding of His glory. Ms37-1898 (March 10, 1898) par. 13 ...” - Ms 37, 1898 (March 10, 1898) par, 1-2, 11-13​

Take notice of what sister White states in regards Proverbs 8:

[01] Jesus existed before all things,

[02] Christ was God essentially, and in the highest sense,

[03] He was with God [the person/being of the Father] from all eternity,

[04] God [the person/being of the Son] over all, blessed forevermore,

[05] I [the person/being of the Son] was set up from everlasting,

[06] I [the person/being of the Son] was there [that is with the person/being of the Father],

[07] in the truth that Christ was one with the Father before the foundation of the world was laid,

[08] This truth, infinitely mysterious in itself, explains other mysterious and otherwise unexplainable truths, while it is enshrined in light, unapproachable and incomprehensible

[09] [the person/being of the Son] even from everlasting to everlasting, thou [the person/being of the Son] are God [not the person/being of the Father or the person/being of the Holy Ghost/Spirit]

[10] the pre-existence of Christ [shines from] the eternal throne

[11] [the person/being of the Son] ruler … whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting

[12] Christ is the power of God, and the wisdom of God

[13] Jesus [is the] “I AM” [the eternal] that spake unto Moses, He is not the 'I came to be'.

[14] Christ is the pre-existent, self-existent Son of God

[15] In speaking of His pre-existence, Christ carries the mind back through dateless ages.

[16] He [the person/being of the Son] assures us that there never was a time when He was not in close fellowship with the eternal God [the person/being of the Father]

[17] The Son was “rejoicing always” before the Father

[18] The Sovereign of the universe was not alone in His work of beneficence. He had an associate—a co-worker who could appreciate His purposes, and could share His joy in giving happiness to created beings.​

The person/being of the Son was always, eternally, the “wisdom of God [the person/being of the Father]”. There is never a time that the “wisdom of God” could not be in eternity past.

 

[Alofa Atu]

Just in case you missed it:

The Son of the Father is “His eternal Son” and is thus ever without beginning or ending, in any way, in His Deity, though Jesus did at a point in eternity take upon himself the [fallen sinful] human flesh [now glorified and immortal] and had a beginning as the second/last Adam, and even a dying therein [with a resurrection and ascension of course!; see Philippians 2:1-11 KJB].

“... Strong is the strength which God supplies Through His eternal Son. ...” - The Signs of the Times January 4, 1883 paragraph 17

See also:

Manuscript Releases, vol. 9 [Nos. 664-770], p. 288.3

Manuscript Releases, vol. 12 [Nos. 921-999], p. 303

Mind, Character, and Personality, vol. 2, p. 513.3

Lt 16, 1896 (November 17, 1896) par. 6​

There is an “eternal covenant” between the Father and the Son, witnessed by the Holy Ghost/Spirit, and since there was “never a time when God was not”, then He must always have been the “Father” in covenant relation with His “Son”:

“... Let those who are oppressed under a sense of sin remember that there is hope for them. The salvation of the human race has ever been the object of the councils of heaven. The covenant of mercy was made before the foundation of the world. It has existed from all eternity, and is called the everlasting covenant. So surely as there never was a time when God was not, so surely there never was a moment when it was not the delight of the eternal mind to manifest His grace to humanity. ...” - The Signs of the Times June 12, 1901 paragraph 7 (Ellen G. White)

See also:

God's Amazing Grace, p. 130.2

The Faith I Live By, p. 76.4

Our Father Cares, p. 68.1

SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 7 (EGW), p. 934.25​

“... Before the foundations of the earth were laid, the covenant was made that all who were obedient, all who should through the abundant grace provided become holy in character, and without blame before God, by appropriating that grace, should be children of God. This covenant, made from eternity, was given to Abraham nineteen hundred years before Christ came. ...” - Ms 9, 1896 (March 23, 1896) par. 19

See also:

Special Testimonies On Education, p. 178.1

Fundamentals of Christian Education, p. 403.1

God's Amazing Grace, p. 141.2

SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 6 (EGW), p. 1114.6​

“... No one of the angels could become a substitute and surety for the human race, for their life is God’s; they could not surrender it. On Christ alone the human family depended for their existence. He is the eternal, self-existent Son, on whom no yoke had come. When God asked, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?” Christ alone of the angelic host could reply, “Here am I; send Me.” He alone had covenanted before the foundation of the world to become a surety for man. He could say that which not the highest angel could say—“I have power over my own life. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again.” ...” - Ms 101, 1897 (September 26, 1897) par. 28

See also:

Manuscript Releases, vol. 12 [Nos. 921-999], p. 395.3​

“... From all eternity Christ was united with the Father, and when He took upon Himself human nature, He was still one with God. ...” - Ms 22, 1905 (March 7, 1904) par. 13

See also:

Selected Messages Book 1, p. 228.4

SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 5 (EGW), p. 1115.1

SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 7A (EGW), p. 440.6

The Signs of the Times August 2, 1905 paragraph 9​

“... But while God's Word speaks of the humanity of Christ when upon this earth, it also speaks decidedly regarding His pre-existence. The Word existed as a divine being, even as the eternal Son of God, in union and oneness with His Father. From everlasting He was the Mediator of the covenant, the one in whom all nations of the earth, both Jews and Gentiles, if they accepted Him, were to be blessed. “The Word was with God, and the Word was God” (John 1:1). Before men or angels were created, the Word was with God, and was God. ...” - The Review and Herald April 5, 1906 paragraph 5 (Ellen G. White)

See also:

Selected Messages Book 1, p. 247.2

Lift Him Up, p. 16.2

Lift Him Up, p. 74.5

Evangelism, p. 615.4

SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 7A (EGW), p. 441.2

The Fruitage of Spiritual Gifts, p. 202.1 (Lewis H. Christian)​

“... The covenant of grace is not a new truth, for it existed in the mind of God from all eternity. This is why it is called the everlasting covenant. ...” - The Signs of the Times August 24, 1891 paragraph 10 (Ellen G. White)

See also:

The Faith I Live By, p. 77.5​

W. W. Prescott later wrote:

“... “The writers of the New Testament believed that in the human body of Jesus of Nazareth lived one who existed from eternity as a person distinct from the Father yet in closest relation to him, the eternal Son of God. This implies that at the birth of Jesus the eternal Son, already the creator of man, entered into a new and very intimate relation to our race.” ...” - The Doctrine of Christ, p. 44.4 (William W. Prescott)​

 

[Alofa Atu]

As to the so-called "septuaginta" (LXX or LXXII???) there really is no such thing, and what we do have is tremendously filled with error. Consider:

Was There A BC Septuagint Part 1

Was There A BC Septuagint Part 2

Was There A BC Septuagint Part 3

Was There A BC Septuagint Part 4

Was There A BC Septuagint Part 5

The Mythological Septuagint, by Peter S Ruckman
https://ia601900.us.archive.org/13/...r S Ruckman - The Mythological Septuagint.pdf

 

[Alofa Atu]

As to the so-called "septuaginta" (LXX or LXXII???) there really is no such thing, and what we do have is tremendously filled with error. Consider:

The Truth About the LXX Septuagint - Dr Phil Stringer

The evidence shows that 'Taint no such thing as "the Septuagint". What you are actually referring to is Origen's Hexapla (Catholic).

The so called "Septuagint", really being "septuaginta (plural, with differing translations)" of Origen's Hexapla, Theodotion (6th column), Aquila of Sinope, & Symmachus and really from the sources Vaticanus and Sinaiticus (both of which are not anywhere near 4th C.).

The Septuagint [LXX] as we presently know it, appears first in the writings of Origen [Hexapla] at near the end of the 2nd century AD, and the mention by the so-called "Letter of Aristeas", based on an unfounded and mostly discredited "legend", is seriously problematic.

"... Most of these fables focus on an infamous “book” 14 called the “Letter of Aristeas” 15 (hereafter called the Letter) and the alleged claims of the Letter’s documentation by authors who wrote before the first coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and in the first few centuries following His first sojourn on earth. 16 The only extant Letter is dated from the eleventh century. In addition, there is no pre-Christian Greek translation of the He-brew Old Testament text, which the Letter alleges, that has been found, in-cluding the texts among the Dead Sea Scrolls. ..." - http://www.theoldpathspublications.com/Downloads/Free/The Septuagint ebook.pdf

"... the story of Aristeas appears comparatively rational. Yet it has long been recognized that much of it is unhistorical, in particular the professed date and nationality of the writer. Its claims to authenticity were demolished by Dr. Hody two centuries ago (De bibliorum textibus originalibus, Oxon., 1705) ..." - The Septuagint, by H. St. J. Thackeray​

De bibliorum textibus originalibus - Humfredi Hodii linguae graecae professoris regii et Archidiaconi Oxon. De bibliorum textibus originalibus, versionibus graecis, & latina vulgata libri 4..

Other sources, identifying the same - The Septuagint

Was the Septuagint the Bible of Christ and the Apostles?

"... Roman Catholics use the idea that Christ quoted the Septuagint to justly include the Apocrypha in their Bibles. ... Since no Hebrew Old Testament ever included the books of the Apocrypha, the Septuagint is the only source the Catholics have for justifying their canon. Many Reformers and Lutherans wrote at great length refuting the validity of the Septuagint. ..." - http://www.wcbible.org/documents/septuagint.pdf​

"... [Page 46] Proponents of the invisible LXX will try to claim that Origen didn't translate the Hebrew into Greek, but only copied the LXX into the second column of his Hexapla. Can this argument be correct? No. If it were, then that would mean that those astute 72 Jewish scholars added the Apocryphal books to their work before they were ever written. (!) Or else, Origen took the liberty to add these spurious writings to God's Holy Word (Rev. 22:18). ...

... Is there ANY Greek manuscript of the Old Testament written BEFORE the time of Christ? Yes. There is one minute scrap dated at 150 BC, the Ryland's Papyrus, #458. It contains Deuteronomy chapters 23-28. No more. No less. If fact, it may be the existence of this fragment that led Eucebius and Philo to assume that the entire Pentatuech had been translated by some scribe in an effort to interest Gentiles in the history of the Jews. ... [page 46]

... [Page 47] If there was an Aristeas, he was faced with two insurmountable problems.

First, how did he ever locate the twelve tribes in order to pick his six representative scholars from each. Having been thoroughly scattered by their many defeats and captivities, the tribal lines of the 12 tribes had long since dissolved into virtual non-existence. It was impossible for anyone to distinctly identify the 12 individual tribes.

Secondly, if the 12 tribes had been identified, they would not have undertaken such a translation for two compelling reasons.

(1) Every Jew knew that the official caretaker of Scripture was the tribe of Levi as evidenced in Deuteronomy 17:18, 31:25,26 and Malachi 2:7. Thus, NO Jew of any of the eleven other tribes would dare to join such a forbidden enterprise. ..." - The Answer Book, By Sam Gipp, Page 46-47, selected portions, emphasis [bold] in original.​

See also The Mythological Septuagint - https://ia801900.us.archive.org/13/items/peter-s-ruckman-the-mythological-septuagint/Peter S Ruckman - The Mythological Septuagint.pdf

1 Jones, The Septuagint: A Critical Analysis, op. cit., pp. 10–54. The reader should, in all fairness, be apprised of the fact that very nearly all references in the literature which allude to the Septuagint in fact pertain to Origen's 5th column. That is, the real LXX from all citation evidence as to N.T. references – indeed, for all practical purposes – the Septuagint that we actually "see" and "use" is found to actually be only two manuscripts, Vaticanus B and Sinaiticus a. This is especially true of Vaticanus. Although this fact is difficult to ferret out from among the vast amount of literature on the subject, it may be verified by numerous sources. Among them, the reader is directed to page 1259 in The New Bible Dictionary op. cit., (Texts-Versions) where D.W. Gooding admits this when he relates that the LXX of Jer.38:40 (Jer.31:40 in the MT) as shown in figure 214 has been taken from the Codex Sinaiticus. Thomas Hartwell Horne is even more direct in An Introduction to the Critical Study and Knowledge of the Holy Scriptures, 9th ed., Vol. II, (London, Eng.: Spottiswoode and Shaw, 1846), fn. 1. p. 282 and fn. 3 p. 288. It has been established that both were produced from Origen's 5th column. Thus, the Septuagint which we actually utilize in practical outworking, the LXX which is cited almost ninety percent of the time, is actually the LXX that was written more than 250 years after the completion of the New Testament canon – and by a "Catholicized Jehovah's Witness" at that! Moreover, it must be seen that the testimony of these two corrupted manuscripts is almost solely responsible for the errors being foisted upon the Holy Scriptures in both Testaments by modern critics! - Footnote 1, Which Version?, by Floyd Nolen Jones, 20th edition page 129 [PDF] - https://ia601901.us.archive.org/9/i... Nolen Jones - Which Version Is The Bible.pdf​

 

[Alofa Atu]

Thus by the time that Origen's etc material was written, we see why Proverbs 8 was changed (Hexapla) to say "εκτισενG2936 V-AAI-3S" (created, as Origen was semi-Arian mystic), rather than to know (possess to know through and through), "εγνωνG1097 V-AAI-1S" (Psalms 139:13), and/or set forth as "αποστελλωG649 V-PAI-1S" (Jeremiah 32:15), meaning set at liberty or free to be possessed again. Yet even here, to have created something, comes with the idea of ownership, or 'possession' of it, and thus in a secondary sense, or definition "possessed me" is still a valid translation of what we have in 'lxx'.

 

[Alofa Atu]

Actually the KJB gets its definition, internally, not from Latin. Allow me to demonstrate in a bit.

Now, to the internal definition, based on first usage, etc, the alpha and omega uses:

The first known use of the word is found in Genesis 4:1

Gen 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.

Gen 4:1 And AdamH121 knewH3045 (H853) EveH2332 his wife;H802 and she conceived,H2029 and bareH3205 (H853) Cain,H7014 and said,H559 I have gottenH7069 a manH376 fromH854 the LORD.H3068

Gen 4:1 והאדם ידע את־חוה אשׁתו ותהר ותלד את־קין ותאמר קניתי אישׁ את־יהוה׃

Gen 4:1 והאדםH120 ידעH3045 אתH853 חוהH2332 אשׁתוH802 ותהרH2029 ותלדH3205 אתH853 קיןH7014 ותאמרH559 קניתיH7069 אישׁH376 אתH854 יהוה׃H3068

Gen 4:1 w'häädäm yäda et-chaûäh ish'Tô waTahar waTëled et-qayin waTomer qäniytiy iysh et-y'hwäh​

"gotten" in this sense, means to now have possession of, to obtain from, as like a gift from one to another. Even here, the child was already in existence, but was merely in the womb until birth, when she (Eve) made the statement. Thus the child "Cain" came from one location to another (in the womb to out of womb).

The next use, or subalpha use, is found in Genesis 14:19:

Gen 14:19 And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:

Gen 14:19 And he blessedH1288 him, and said,H559 BlessedH1288 be AbramH87 of the most highH5945 God,H410 possessorH7069 of heavenH8064 and earth:H776

Gen 14:19 ויברכהו ויאמר ברוך אברם לאל עליון קנה שׁמים וארץ׃

Gen 14:19 ויברכהוH1288 ויאמרH559 ברוךH1288 אברםH87 לאלH410 עליוןH5945 קנהH7069 שׁמיםH8064 וארץ׃H776

Gen 14:19 way'vär'khëhû waYomar Bärûkh' av'räm l'ël el'yôn qonëh shämayim wääretz​

The text again shows, that all things belong to God, whether created (things, places or beings) or uncreated (Beings, like the Son and Holy Ghost, hence the phrase, "Son of God", and "the Spirit of the LORD", and is thus "possessor" of them all. The Son and Holy Ghost (both of which are unCreated and Eternal) belong unto the Father. Thus in Genesis 14:19,21 and the context thereof, we see that Abraham acknowledges that all things belong unto God, and so returns the "tithe" (tenth) to Him in faith. This is again addressed in Hebrews 7.

The Omega uses in the OT of the word is found in Zechariah:

Zec 11:5 Whose possessors slay them, and hold themselves not guilty: and they that sell them say, Blessed be the LORD; for I am rich: and their own shepherds pity them not.

Zec 11:5 WhoseH834 possessorsH7069 slayH2026 them, and hold themselves not guilty:H816 H3808 and they that sellH4376 them say,H559 BlessedH1288 be the LORD;H3068 for I am rich:H6238 and their own shepherdsH7462 pityH2550 H5921 them not.H3808

Zec 11:5 אשׁר קניהן יהרגן ולא יאשׁמו ומכריהן יאמר ברוך יהוה ואעשׁר ורעיהם לא יחמול עליהן׃

Zec 11:5 אשׁרH834 קניהןH7069 יהרגןH2026 ולאH3808 יאשׁמוH816 ומכריהןH4376 יאמרH559 ברוךH1288 יהוהH3068 ואעשׁרH6238 ורעיהםH7462 לאH3808 יחמולH2550 עליהן׃H5921

Zec 11:5 ásher qonëyhen yahár'gun w'lo ye'shämû ûmokh'rëyhen yomar Bärûkh' y'hwäh wa'shir w'roëyhem lo yach'môl álëyhen​

and

Zec 13:5 But he shall say, I am no prophet, I am an husbandman; for man taught me to keep cattle from my youth.

Zec 13:5 But he shall say,H559 IH595 am noH3808 prophet,H5030 IH595 am an husbandman;H376 H5647 H127 forH3588 manH120 taught me to keep cattleH7069 from my youth.H4480 H5271

Zec 13:5 ואמר לא נביא אנכי אישׁ־עבד אדמה אנכי כי אדם הקנני מנעורי׃

Zec 13:5 ואמרH559 לאH3808 נביאH5030 אנכיH595 אישׁH376 עבדH5647 אדמהH127 אנכיH595 כיH3588 אדםH120 הקנניH7069 מנעורי׃H5271

Zec 13:5 w'ämar lo näviy änokhiy iysh-ovëd ádämäh änokhiy Kiy ädäm hiq'naniy miN'ûräy
​

We see again the use and meaning of "possession". God's word defines the word, and in as many other uses found throughout also, as for instance:

Isa 1:3 The ox knoweth his owner, and the ass his master's crib: but Israel doth not know, my people doth not consider.
​

Thus "owner" (one who possesses) and "master" are tied definitionally and by parallelism.

Even when the word is translated "buy", it means to come to "possess" by some means, whether through payment, or a returning to ownership by some method. It doesn't mean that such lands or persons were created at that point in time, but are come into the ownership of someone, already being in existence (or accepted as apriori as such). So when we read in Proverbs 8, that "the LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way", it is not a purchasing, but a simple ownership, as Father to Son. The Son is the possession of the Father in the most intimate way possible. The Father knows the Son through and through. There is nothing in the Son that is hid from the Father. The Son is the Lamb of the Father, the great Shepherd over all.

 

[Alofa Atu]

Consider a notation

"fut. יִקְנֶה; apoc. יִקֶן prop. to erect, to set upright, i.q. הֵכִין (cogn. to כּוּן, קִין; whence קָנֶה, קָנָה reed, cane); hence

(1) to found, create [see note below] the heaven and the earth, Genesis 14:19, 22 Genesis 14:22 men, Deuteronomy 32:6; Psalms 139:13; Proverbs 8:22 (Arab. قنا i.q. خلق to create as God; see Kamûs, p. 1937).

(2) to acquire for oneself, Proverbs 4:7, 15:32 16:16 19:8 Ruth 4:9, 10 to obtain, Genesis 4:1 (Eth. ቀነየ፡ to possess, to be owner). Specially

(3) to buy (compare Lat. conciliare, for emere, Ter. Eun. iv. 4, 2), Genesis 25:10, 47:22, etc.; also to redeem (people out of captivity), Isaiah 11:11; Nehemiah 5:8.

[Note. There does not appear to be any sufficient ground for ascribing the sense of to create to this verb; in all the passages cited for that sense, to possess, appears to be the true meaning; see Dr. M’Caul’s Sermon on the Divine Sonship of the Messiah. Append.]

Niphal, to be acquired, bought, Jeremiah 32:15, 43 Jeremiah 32:43.

Hiphil, Zechariah 13:5 prob. i.q. Kal No. 3, to buy [in Thes. “to sell”]. But מַקְנֶה Ezekiel 8:3, is for מַקְנִיא exciting the jealousy or anger (of God). Hence [the following words, and קִנְיָן, מִקְנֶה, מִקְנָה, and pr.n. קְנָת] - Strong's #7069 - קָנָה - Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon
​

Why some think it means to 'create' is because of the definition to "set up", that is to "to put into place", as in Deuteronomy 32:6, wherein the word is translated "bought", in connection with "asah'" (make) and "kun" (establish). Thus it means to be purchased, so that God can put Israel into a place designed by God, for God's purpose. In other words, God makes Israel what He wills because they are His possession, property, people. The old saying, "I made you what you are." (Deuteronomy 32:15; ie God made them as a "nation" by doing what He did in purchasing them to Himself by His love and grace, Exodus 20:1-2), applies here in connection with Israel having been paid for by God (Deuteronomy 32:9). Yet, even with all this, the word itself, doesn't mean to create, it simply means to own, possess, set up, found (as in founding a people), &c.

 

[Alofa Atu]

We can look back to Genesis 4:1 again, and see Cain's own name is derived from the word itself:

"The same as H7013 (with a play upon the affinity to H7069); Kajin, the name of the first child, also of a place in Palestine, and of an Oriental tribe: - Cain, Kenite (-s)." - Strong's Concordance Esword Edition​

As one person succinctly stated:

"Cain’s name in Hebrew is קַיִן Kayan (Strongs # 7014) comes from קָנָה (Strongs # 7069) kanah, meaning “possessing” or “acquiring.” Eve explicitly bases Cain’s name upon the notion of acquiring: “Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, “I have acquired1 (קָנִיתִי kaniti) a man from the Holy One.” In order to farm or ranch Cain needs to “acquire” tools, animals, and the land itself – a new concept in history." - What’s In A Name: A Secret About Cain and Abel | Rabbi David Zaslow
​

There are others who dive even deeper into the origins of Origin's Hexapla and choices therein (ektisen):

"...Now, the ἔκτισεν means "he created", "he made", but its semantic field also includes "he brought forth" (Liddle&Scott give few references when the word means "to bring about", as in Aeschylus' "Suppliants" 171, where according to the context it can be translated even as "beget", as chosen by H.W. Smith). In Septuagint, for example in Sirach 44:2 it is impossible for the ἔκτισεν to be used in a strict technical meaning of "creation out of nothing" as it later acquired through the relevant theological debates, especially the Arian controversy, for it is said that "God wrought much glory through hero-ancestors, that is to say, His great power/majesty from the beginning" (πολλὴν δόξαν ἔκτισεν ὁ Κύριος, τὴν μεγαλωσύνην αὐτοῦ ἀπ᾿ αἰῶνος), now God's glory and majesty is always with Him inseparably, and therefore ἔκτισεν in this passage can but mean that He revealed or worked His (αὐτοῦ) ever-existing glory through the heroes of the past, and not created this glory and majesty out of nothing (the Hebrew is even more clear with this, for it has "He apportioned His glory to them"); that men can partake of uncreated divine glory is clear from the Scriptures (cf. John 5:44). The English translations of this passage give a range of options for the ἔκτισεν from “created” (CEB) to “wrought” (DRA), “honored” (GNT), "manifested" (WEB), “made” (WYC), others (NABRE, NRSV, NRSVA, NRSVACE, NRSVCE, RSV, RSVCE) opt for the Hebrew version, which makes things even clearer, saying that “God apportioned His great glory” to the heroic ancestors, thus it is excluded the Septuagint translator could mean in the ἔκτισεν any strong sense of creation, to say nothing about the ex nihilo sense, given that "His great Glory" is everexistent just as He Himself is.

Also, κτίζω can mean with a double accusative "to make somebody something", e.g., "to make/set somebody free" (cf. Aeschylus "Choephori" 1060), that is to say, cause somebody's getting free. In this last meaning the adequate literal translation of the Septuagint will be: "Lord caused/made me (brought me forth) to be the beginning of His ways towards His deeds", for there is not an "ἐν ἄρχῃ" in the text, but a double accusative ("[ἔκτισεν] με ἀρχήν"), like in the abovementioned quote from Aeschylus ("ἐλεύθερόν σε [κτίσει]"). Therefore, the translation "He created me in the beginning of his ways" is totally misleading, while "He caused/made me to be the beginning/principle" is grammatically more plausible with the double accusative construction. Thus, the Septuagint suggests that God was necessitated to bring forth, bring about, or cause something to be the principle ἀρχή for doing His deeds (ἔργα); therefore, by logic of this, this something is not included in those ἔργα but is outside of them as the God-derived principle for their coming into being.

The question is whether this something, this God-derived principle was always with God, or God can be imagined without it? And it would mean that God could create the ἔργα without the mediation of this ἄρχη, which is counter-intuitive, for then why on earth He makes things difficult for Himself as to create a middle principle between Himself and the rest of the creation and only later to create through this created middle principle the rest of the creation? Why not to create all creation without this intermediate creation, just directly? But if we take the ἔκτισεν in a looser sense of "made to be", or "caused to be", which grammatically is more precise, then it is very reasonalbe to think that God creates creatures making His intrinsic Wisdom as the necessary and inavodable principle of manifesting Himself in those creatures, for those creatures possess the perceptible and created signs of Him-Uncreated, or more precisely of His uncreated wisdom. Just for an analogy: rays of the sun say: "The sun made us the principle for making visible the mountains and fields", now, as it is impossible for the sun to make visible anything without its rays, in the similar manner, it is impossible for God to make anything without His Wisdom.

The Hebrew version has קָ֭נָנִי "possessed me", so there is no indication of its' being in any situation (I do not say "time", which could not exist without something to be measured by it, i.e. the world) not possessed by God. But why the Septuagint translators put there the ἔκτισεν (of course, if it is not a simple mistake on the part of the translator who put ἔκτισεν instead of ἐκτήσατο - from κτάομαι/"to possess" - which is the more adequate to the Hebrew word, as suggested by Aquila, Symmachus, Theodotion and Jerome /possedit/)? ..." - Does Proverbs 8:22 say that God's wisdom was the first person/thing that God created?​

 

[Barry Johnson]

"The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old"

This verse in its context, is about God-given "wisdom" that has been "personified" throught this Book.

From the early Church some have sought to use this for the Lord Jesus Christ, and His eternal relationship with the Father. Even the great Church "father", Athanasius, used this verse in the Greek (LXX), in the sense of "appointing", to show that the Father, had made the Son the "Chief", the "Head", the "Sovereign", over all creation. On the other hand, the arch-heretic, Arius, the forerunner of cults like the Jehovah's Witnesses, used this same verse, in the same Greek version, to show that Jesus Christ is part of creation.

The word translated in English versions like the KJV, "possessed", is from the Hebrew, "qânâh", which has the meaning of "creating", by the Act of God. The Greek Old Testament Version, known as the Septuigent (LXX), renders the Hebrew verb by the Greek, "ktízō", which, like the Hebrew, also means "create", also used "to found, build", etc. The ancient, Chaldaic, Arabic, and Syriac Versions of the OT use words that agree with the LXX; the Latin Vulgate, however, uses, "possedit", from where the KJV gets its reading, "possessed" from.

Based on the evidence of the actual language used in the Hebrew OT, and other versions that are important, it is IMPOSSIBLE for this verse to ever be even remotely be used for the Lord Jesus Christ, in any way. Regardless of whether some of the best Christian theologians and apoligists, did use it in this sense. We must decide our understanding from what the Bible actually says, and not merely follow others because they have good arguments, or they might be "notable" leaders.

Proverbs is about wisdom . And mostly its female .

 

[Alofa Atu]

Proverbs is about wisdom .

Yes, but the scriptures are about Jesus (John 5:39).

See - Why Proverbs 8:22 Cannot Refer to Jesus Christ. - For Non-Baptists

And mostly its female .

Already addressed, as Jesus said, "... how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!" (Luke 13:34 & Matthew 23:37)

See - Why Proverbs 8:22 Cannot Refer to Jesus Christ. - For Non-Baptists

 

[Barry Johnson]

Yes, but the scriptures are about Jesus (John 5:39).

See - Why Proverbs 8:22 Cannot Refer to Jesus Christ. - For Non-Baptists

Already addressed, as Jesus said, "... how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!" (Luke 13:34 & Matthew 23:37)

See - Why Proverbs 8:22 Cannot Refer to Jesus Christ. - For Non-Baptists

We always want to interpret the unclear with the clear . Wisdom is clearly the point .

 

[Alofa Atu]

We always want to interpret the unclear with the clear . Wisdom is clearly the point .

This is pretty clear:

1Co_1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.​

See - Why Proverbs 8:22 Cannot Refer to Jesus Christ. - For Non-Baptists

 

[Barry Johnson]

This is pretty clear:

1Co_1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.​

See - Why Proverbs 8:22 Cannot Refer to Jesus Christ. - For Non-Baptists

different context.

 

[Alofa Atu]

different context.

Isaiah 28:10,13 and 1 Corinthians 2:13. The Holy Ghost inspired all of it (2 Timothy 3:16), yes? it is non-contradictory (John 10:35), yes? it is God who interprets, yes (Genesis 40:8; 2 Peter 1:20)?

 

[SGO]

Thank you for the videos about the Septuagint.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Proverbs is about wisdom . And mostly its female .

exactly! and yet there are those who simply ignore what the Bible ACTUALLY teaches, and harp on about theological IMPOSSIBILITIES!!!