Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
I know many Calvinists who thought the Gospel was foolish when heard the first time. Often taking many times of hearing over even years before they finally believed?
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Calvinism and Context ?
- Thread starter Barry Johnson
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Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
I am a bible believer who reads that God is pleased to save those that believeBecause of scripture and what I observe in scripture, we are not on the same page. I am a monergist who sees God as Supreme. You are a synergist who sees God as a cooperative agent with you in your salvation.
They weren't even Christians, let alone Calvinists. They were still dead in their sin, having not yet been made alive with Christ.I know many Calvinists who thought the Gospel was foolish when heard the first time. Often taking many times of hearing over even years before they finally believed?
This is why we continue to preach reconciliation. God has his perfect time for redemption.
We agree.I am a bible believer who reads that God is pleased to save those that believe
Where we likely differ is in who/what causes a person to believe.
I believe the Bible teaches that men are dead in their trespasses and sins and that God causes them to be made alive and gives them faith to believe. It is God's good pleasure to save them.
The way you have worded your statement, I take you to believe that men must first choose to believe, which pleases God enough that God saves them.
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
I'm talking about before they believed . Of course there not christians before they are Christians .They weren't even Christians, let alone Calvinists. They were still dead in their sin, having not yet been made alive with Christ.
This is why we continue to preach reconciliation. God has his perfect time for redemption.
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
No you add' enough ' . God is pleased to save those that believe, not cause belief in those he saves. (1 Cor. 1:21; Rom. 10:9-10)We agree.
Where we likely differ is in who/what causes a person to believe.
I believe the Bible teaches that men are dead in their trespasses and sins and that God causes them to be made alive and gives them faith to believe. It is God's good pleasure to save them.
The way you have worded your statement, I take you to believe that men must first choose to believe, which pleases God enough that God saves them.
This makes salvation a pantomime if God is pleased to cause belief in those he saves .
How can a person, who is dead in their trespasses and sins, believe, unless God first makes them alive?No you add' enough ' . God is pleased to save those that believe, not cause belief in those he saves. (1 Cor. 1:21; Rom. 10:9-10)
This makes salvation a pantomime if God is pleased to cause belief in those he saves .
You are promoting the idea that spiritually dead people can believe first, which then causes God to make them alive with Christ. This is not taught in the Bible.
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
Right there is the issue . You have decided the the T in TULIP is true . From this Faulty set of glasses your having trouble seeing what the bible actually says.How can a person, who is dead in their trespasses and sins, believe, unless God first makes them alive?
You are promoting the idea that spiritually dead people can believe first, which then causes God to make them alive with Christ. This is not taught in the Bible.
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
Nobody ' causes ' God . God causes all those that believe to be regenerated. God is pleased to do this ( grace)How can a person, who is dead in their trespasses and sins, believe, unless God first makes them alive?
You are promoting the idea that spiritually dead people can believe first, which then causes God to make them alive with Christ. This is not taught in the Bible.
Nope, I am deciding that the Bible, in Ephesians 2:1-9, is true. From this truth I see that spiritually dead people are made alive, not by virtue of their own conjured up faith, but by virtue of God graciously saving them through making them alive with Christ and giving them faith to believe.Right there is the issue . You have decided the the T in TULIP is true . From this Faulty set of glasses your having trouble seeing what the bible actually says.
Barry, I actually take God for what he says in Ephesians 2:1-9. It's that simple. Please stop bringing up your crutch by which you imagine you can deny scripture.
God causes all whom He wills to believe. You keep assigning belief to human willpower and then you claim that God looks on all the people who, by their own process, conjure up belief and therefore chooses to graciously reward them for their choice.Nobody ' causes ' God . God causes all those that believe to be regenerated. God is pleased to do this ( grace)
I openly reject your legalism as anathema to the gospel.
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
Keep readingNope, I am deciding that the Bible, in Ephesians 2:1-9, is true. From this truth I see that spiritually dead people are made alive, not by virtue of their own conjured up faith, but by virtue of God graciously saving them through making them alive with Christ and giving them faith to believe.
Barry, I actually take God for what he says in Ephesians 2:1-9. It's that simple. Please stop bringing up your crutch by which you imagine you can deny scripture.
11¶Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Does that change anything? No. God's means of salvation remains the same.Keep reading
11¶Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Spiritually dead people must, by God's gracious choice, be made alive with Christ and gifted faith.
You have inserted legalism and works as the reason God extends grace. You simply have a variation of a Roman Catholic works means of salvation.
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
Again your system has fooled you . No one gets a wage for beleiving . Calvinism is no different to every other system that puts people into a works based mindset. They are initially convinced by its OSAS exterior . But is no different to Arminism in its practice.God causes all whom He wills to believe. You keep assigning belief to human willpower and then you claim that God looks on all the people who, by their own process, conjure up belief and therefore chooses to graciously reward them for their choice.
I openly reject your legalism as anathema to the gospel.
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
You only say that because you believe in the U . Not because of scipture ,but because you believed in the U .Does that change anything? No. God's means of salvation remains the same.
Spiritually dead people must, by God's gracious choice, be made alive with Christ and gifted faith.
You have inserted legalism and works as the reason God extends grace. You simply have a variation of a Roman Catholic works means of salvation.
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
The above verses means that your U and L are false .Does that change anything? No. God's means of salvation remains the same.
Spiritually dead people must, by God's gracious choice, be made alive with Christ and gifted faith.
You have inserted legalism and works as the reason God extends grace. You simply have a variation of a Roman Catholic works means of salvation.
No system. Quit using that as your excuse to ignore what God has very clearly stated.Again your system has fooled you . No one gets a wage for beleiving . Calvinism is no different to every other system that puts people into a works based mindset. They are initially convinced by its OSAS exterior . But is no different to Arminism in its practice.
and who are they who can believe, those with "ears given to hear?"I am a bible believer who reads that God is pleased to save those that believe
I have no idea what you mean by the U and L.You only say that because you believe in the U . Not because of scipture ,but because you believed in the U .
Let's look at what God's word says.
Does God say he makes spiritually dead people alive with Christ?
Does God say that we are saved by grace?
Does God say that faith comes before being made alive?
Barry, you are demanding that spiritually dead person's must have faith that God will then recognize and therefore choose to grant them gracious salvation. That is your position. It is not supported by scripture.
Grace is God does for us what none of us could do for ourselves!I have no idea what you mean by the U and L.
Let's look at what God's word says.
Does God say he makes spiritually dead people alive with Christ?
Does God say that we are saved by grace?
Does God say that faith comes before being made alive?
Barry, you are demanding that spiritually dead person's must have faith that God will then recognize and therefore choose to grant them gracious salvation. That is your position. It is not supported by scripture.
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