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Calvinism Misrepresents the Meaning of Death

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by JD731, Sep 29, 2020.

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  1. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
    19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
    20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.

    The Lord asks us to reason with him and we should do that on the subject of death, a subject that Calvinists do not understand, whether on purpose or not , I cannot say. So let's take things we know and apply some logic and reason to them.

    First, we know that God created Adam in his own image and after his likeness and somehow that included what the scriptures define as life. Then we are told Adam sinned, which is defined as an act of disobedience to God. We are told sin is the transgression of the law. The disobedience of Adam certainly transgressed the one law he was given to obey. This caused death because the Lord had said "in the day you eat thereof ye shall surely die. This begs the question of what happened in that day when Adam died and was cast out of the garden of God?

    To begin to understand that let us fast forward to the time after the cross and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Here is a man who is God in human form with all the physical weaknesses of any of us. The difference in this man than the rest of us is that he was begotten of God and not Adam, though he had a human mother. The gospel of John, in chapter 1 says about him when he became flesh, that "in him was life and the life was the light of men." He is not speaking here of life that is in all men because the life that is in other men is not light to anyone else. In Hebrews 1:2 we are told he is the express image of God while he was here on the earth. So, here is Jesus Christ, the God man, or the man who is God and he has life in him. He also has fellowship with God continually because this life that is in him is the Spirit of God. God is in him. This is the light of the world, the light of men. In John 8:32 he says "I am the light of the world. he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness but shall have the light of life."

    Time out, for just a minute. Light is a metaphor for understanding. Proof: "The entrance of thy word giveth life, it giveth understanding to the simple. Darkness is a metaphor for ignorance and blindness. Psa 119:130.
    17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, Eph 418 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

    What is this light and life that was in Jesus Christ? Well, if you have read the verses I have quoted already you know it is the Spirit of God, the third member of the Godhead. He is life and he is the Spirit of Christ and of God. Here is proof.

    Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life ..........
    9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

    You see the Spirit is both the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ because both are God. So, if a man has God indwelling his mortal body he has eternal life and is constantly in the presence of God because of his presence. It is not possible for anything to break that fellowship, even acts of sin, because of three things. The blood of Christ which washed our sins away, and the advocacy of Jesus Christ, and our position in the body of Christ as one unified member among many.

    Jesus Christ is the "last Adam," the second man, we are told by the scriptures. Paul says in Titus 3 these wonderful words;

    Ti 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
    5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
    6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

    Now, after these words, let us reason together. If Jesus Christ, a man, and the son of God was alive because he had the Spirit of God indwelling him, who he says is life and he is God and he indwells the believer in Jesus forever, would it not be logical to reason that what happened to Adam in the garden of God is that he sinned and the death that he experienced that day was the indwelling Spirit, who is a person, departed from him because of his sin?

    Now there is a lot to say and much more to this than I have room to say here but maybe in the coming days I can add to this great truth that by it's very nature of being the truth,will refute many doctrines of the Calvinists.

    Maybe next I will show how Adam died 930 years later, a physical death, which is defined by his spirit (of man) his soul, departing from his body. So, Adam died spiritually and then he died physically, and so did Jesus Christ die in like manner on that cross.

    Therefore, it will be proven from the scriptures that death is defined by the scriptures as separation and that is all it means. A man who is dead in his trespasses and sins simply means that he still has sin accounted to him because it has not been washed away in the blood of the Lamb and he does not have the presence of the Spirit of God dwelling in his mortal body. Death not mean that a man is unable to reason and think and believe as Calvinists teach.
     
    #1 JD731, Sep 29, 2020
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  2. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    • [Gen 2:17 NASB] 17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely[H4191] die."[H4191]
    • [Gen 5:5 NASB] 5 So all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years, and he died.[H4191]
    • [Exo 7:18, 21 NASB] 18 "The fish that are in the Nile will die,[H4191] and the Nile will become foul, and the Egyptians will find difficulty in drinking water from the Nile."'" ... 21 The fish that [were] in the Nile died,[H4191] and the Nile became foul, so that the Egyptians could not drink water from the Nile. And the blood was through all the land of Egypt.
    • [Exo 8:13 NASB] 13 The LORD did according to the word of Moses, and the frogs died[H4191] out of the houses, the courts, and the fields.
    • [Exo 9:4, 6 NASB] 4 "But the LORD will make a distinction between the livestock of Israel and the livestock of Egypt, so that nothing will die[H4191] of all that belongs to the sons of Israel."'" ... 6 So the LORD did this thing on the next day, and all the livestock of Egypt died;[H4191] but of the livestock of the sons of Israel, not one died.[H4191]
    Do frogs have souls?
     
    #2 atpollard, Sep 29, 2020
  3. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Man was created in the image of God. Frogs are animals man is not an animal. The living soul is created in the image of God. Frogs are not.
    MB
     
    #3 MB, Sep 29, 2020
  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    What part of man was affected by the Fall?
     
    #4 Yeshua1, Sep 29, 2020
  5. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Which fall?
    MB
     
    #5 MB, Sep 29, 2020
  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Adam
     
    #6 Yeshua1, Sep 29, 2020
  7. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    What fall?
    MB
     
    #7 MB, Sep 29, 2020
  8. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Did Adam fall? where in scripture does it say he fell?.Why do you claim He fell? What did he fall from? He wasn't in heaven, He was on Earth. Adam sinned He didn't fall.Adam died physically because of sinning. He was forgiven when he repented. 930 years afterwards. He could not have died Spiritually because He spoke to God in the garden afterwards
    MB
     
    #8 MB, Sep 29, 2020
  9. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Judas kissed God in a garden ... just saying.
     
    #9 atpollard, Sep 29, 2020
  10. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned (including Adam) and fall short of the glory of God, (this fall) being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. [Romans 3:21-26 NASB]​
     
    #10 atpollard, Sep 29, 2020
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  11. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    How do we know all of that?

    "God created Adam in his own image and after his likeness" comes from "God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them." [Gen 1:27 NASB], so I agree with that.

    Where does scripture say say that the imago Dei includes "what the scriptures define as life"?

    This part is a fair summary Genesis 3, so no disagreement from me on this part.

    Once we establish the foundation for your claim about "life", then we can move on to Paragraph 2.
     
    #11 atpollard, Sep 29, 2020
  12. Wesley Briggman

    Wesley Briggman Well-Known Member
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    Spiritual death - only able to respond to the spirit of light. Separated from the light - God.
    [1Jo 1:5 KJV] 5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
    [Mat 4:16 KJV] 16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.

    Physical death - unable respond to physical stimuli. Separated from it.

    Eternal death - eternally separated for God and condemned to suffering and torment.

    I am not a Calvinist, but you need to provide supporting documentation from Calvinist sources to validate your charge against them: "Death not mean that a man is unable to reason and think and believe as Calvinists teach.". a

    What is spiritual death? | GotQuestions.org
    "Death is separation. A physical death is the separation of the soul from the body. Spiritual death, which is of greater significance, is the separation of the soul from God. In Genesis 2:17, God tells Adam that in the day he eats of the forbidden fruit he will “surely die.” Adam does fall, but his physical death does not occur immediately; God must have had another type of death in mind—spiritual death. This separation from God is exactly what we see in Genesis 3:8. When Adam and Eve heard the voice of the Lord, they “hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God.” The fellowship had been broken. They were spiritually dead."
     
    #12 Wesley Briggman, Sep 29, 2020
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  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Adam fell from state of innocent, and he now need a savior to save him from his sins!
     
    #13 Yeshua1, Sep 29, 2020
  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    We hold that lost sinners still have p[hysical life, so can eat and think and exist and live, just the spiritual aspect that communes with God died and that aspect needs to be reborn again!
     
    #14 Yeshua1, Sep 29, 2020
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  15. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    And Christ spoke to Him. Judas heard the Lord and he was convicted which is why he went out and hung him self
    MB
     
    #15 MB, Sep 29, 2020
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  16. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    The physical can speak with God and hear God and obey God can build an altar to sacrifice on. What you are claiming now is that the physical can hear and respond to God Which goes against Calvinism?.. If you say so.
    MB
     
    #16 MB, Sep 29, 2020
  17. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    We have all sinned. Adam had faith in God from the beginning. He just loved Eve more than God. We are all innocent in the beginning of our lives until we sin. Adam had a sin nature just as we do.
    MB
     
    #17 MB, Sep 29, 2020
  18. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Irrelevant. One more time ...

    Speaking to God in a garden does not prove "spiritual life" since the "son of perdition" was able to do it while betraying Christ.
    Adam did die spiritually because when Adam heard God in the garden, Adam ran and hid.

    "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed." [= spiritually dead] [John 3:19-20 NASB]
     
    #18 atpollard, Sep 29, 2020
  19. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Why run unless you fear God. Adam believed in God. Believing in God is what saves us all.

    Yes he ran for his life because of his fear. So did Jonah which is how he was swallowed by a large fish. Was Jonah spiritually dead?. You are speculating. You do not know if Adam was dead spiritually or not. My position is OSAS Saved men sin. Do they die Spiritually because of it? Adam had to be saved because he believed in God. Are you saying he lost his Salvation?. I do not believe anyone can loose there Salvation.
    1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
    MB
     
    #19 MB, Sep 29, 2020
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Not Godly sorrow as peter had, but as Esau!
     
    #20 Yeshua1, Sep 29, 2020
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