God the Son's Assent to The Eternal Covenant of God's Giving Salvation, by Grace.

[Alan Gross]

I added the blue words.


"Now all this was "written" concerning Him "in the volume of the book";
not of the scriptures in general only, nor of the Pentateuch in particular,
the only volume extant in David's time,

en kefalidi,

at the head and beginning of which
is a declaration of the Grace, Will, and Work of Christ, #Ge 3:15

nor only of the book of God's Purposes, #Ps 139:16

but of the Covenant; alluding to the writing, signing, and sealing of covenants;

the Covenant at Sinai is called, the book of the Covenant, #Ex 24:8.

Now in this volume, or book, as the Father's Proposal
is there Written and Contained,
so is the Son's Assent unto it, and Acceptance of it.

Add to all this, that the Character
in which Christ here addresses His Divine Father, "My God",
is a phrase expressive of Covenant Relation,
and is frequently so used both with regard to Christ and His people.

But, to observe no more, nothing more fully proves
Christ's Free and Full Assent
and Consent to do the will of his Father, proposed in the Covenant,
than His actual Performance of it.

Was it His Will that He should take the Care and Charge of all His elect, and lose none?
he has done it, #Joh 17:12.

Was it His Will that He should assume human nature?
the Word has been Made flesh and Dwelt among men, #Joh 1:14.

Was it His Will that He should obey the law?
He is become the end of the law for righteousness, #Ro 10:4.

Was it His Will that He should suffer death, the penalty of it?
He has Suffered, the Just for the unjust, to Bring them to God, #1Pe 3:18.

Was it His Will that He should make Himself an Offering for sin?
He has Given Himself to God, an Offering and a Sacrifice, of a sweet-smelling savour, #Eph 5:2

In a word, Was it His Will that He should Redeem His people from all their iniquities?
Yes, He has Obtained an Eternal Redemption of them, #Heb 9:12.

FROM:

The Part The Son Of God,
The Second Person,
Has Taken In The Covenant

His By Grace--"John Gill: A Body of Doctrinal & Practical Divinity"-Doctrinal Book 2, Chapter 9


The "council between the three Divine Persons,
shows Their Unanimity in The Everlasting Council ;

as they are One in Nature, so they Agree in One;

and as in everything, so in this, the Salvation of men;

the Father signified His mind that His Son
should be sent to be the Saviour of men,

when He may be supposed to put such a question as in #Isa 6:8.

"Whom shall I Send, and Who Will Go for Us?"

the Son, knowing His Father's Will, and Assenting to The Everlasting Council ,
declared his agreement with The Everlasting Council , "Here Am I, Send Me";

and the Spirit Approving of the Father's Motion, and the Son's consent,
joined with the Divine Father in the Mission of Him, JESUS, The SON;

"Now the Lord God and His Spirit hath Sent Me", #Isa 48:16

and what Inexpressible Pleasure must such Unanimity Give to a believing soul,
to declare which is the Design of the Divine Consultation

...2e. That there has been such a Transaction between the Father and the Son,
which, with Propriety enough, may be called the "Counsel of Peace",
we have sufficient warrant from #2Co 5:19.

"God was in Christ Reconciling the world unto Himself,
not imputing their trespasses";

by the "world" is meant the Elect of God, He so Loved
, as to Send His Son to be the Saviour of,
and for the Life of whom Christ Gave His flesh, #Joh 3:16 6:51

and about the Peace and Reconciliation of those,
or in what way to make Peace and Atonement for them,

God was in Christ, or with Christ, Consulting, Contriving,
and Planning the Scheme of The ONE Everlasting Council of GRACE;

which was this, not to impute their sins unto them, but to Christ,
now called to be the Saviour of them;

and this contains the sum of what we mean by The Council of Peace.

..."3b2. Jehovah the Son, has the same Wisdom, Counsel,
and Understanding His Father has;

for all that He hath are His;

nor does Christ Think it any robbery to be Equal with Him;

He is Wisdom itself, or "wisdoms",
He is Possessed of the Most Consummate Wisdom;

in Him, even as Mediator, are hid all the Treasures of Wisdom and Knowledge;

and He Himself says, "Counsel is Mine, and Sound Wisdom",
#Pr 1:20 8:14 #Col 2:3

yea, he is called "the Wonderful, Counsellor", #Isa 9:6

which not only respects His Capacity and Ability
to Give the Best Counsel and Advice to men, as he does,

but to Assist in the Council of God Himself;

and so the "Septuagint" interpreters understood that passage, rendering it,
"the Angel of the Great Council";

whereby it seems as if those Jews then had a notion of this great transaction, and of the concern of the Messiah in it;

to whom the whole verse belongs: to which may be added,
that Christ the Son of God,
was as One Brought Up with His Divine Father,
Lay in His Bosom,
was Privy to His Designs,
and must be in His Council, and was on all accounts fit for it."

FROM:
The Everlasting Council
Between The Three Divine Persons,
Concerning The Salvation Of Men

His By Grace--"John Gill: A Body of Doctrinal & Practical Divinity"-Doctrinal Book 2, Chapter 6

 

[Iconoclast]

I added the blue words.


"Now all this was "written" concerning Him "in the volume of the book";
not of the scriptures in general only, nor of the Pentateuch in particular,
the only volume extant in David's time,

en kefalidi,

at the head and beginning of which
is a declaration of the Grace, Will, and Work of Christ, #Ge 3:15

nor only of the book of God's Purposes, #Ps 139:16

but of the Covenant; alluding to the writing, signing, and sealing of covenants;

the Covenant at Sinai is called, the book of the Covenant, #Ex 24:8.

Now in this volume, or book, as the Father's Proposal
is there Written and Contained,
so is the Son's Assent unto it, and Acceptance of it.

Add to all this, that the Character
in which Christ here addresses His Divine Father, "My God",
is a phrase expressive of Covenant Relation,
and is frequently so used both with regard to Christ and His people.

But, to observe no more, nothing more fully proves
Christ's Free and Full Assent
and Consent to do the will of his Father, proposed in the Covenant,
than His actual Performance of it.

Was it His Will that He should take the Care and Charge of all His elect, and lose none?
he has done it, #Joh 17:12.

Was it His Will that He should assume human nature?
the Word has been Made flesh and Dwelt among men, #Joh 1:14.

Was it His Will that He should obey the law?
He is become the end of the law for righteousness, #Ro 10:4.

Was it His Will that He should suffer death, the penalty of it?
He has Suffered, the Just for the unjust, to Bring them to God, #1Pe 3:18.

Was it His Will that He should make Himself an Offering for sin?
He has Given Himself to God, an Offering and a Sacrifice, of a sweet-smelling savour, #Eph 5:2

In a word, Was it His Will that He should Redeem His people from all their iniquities?
Yes, He has Obtained an Eternal Redemption of them, #Heb 9:12.

FROM:

The Part The Son Of God,
The Second Person,
Has Taken In The Covenant

His By Grace--"John Gill: A Body of Doctrinal & Practical Divinity"-Doctrinal Book 2, Chapter 9


The "council between the three Divine Persons,
shows Their Unanimity in The Everlasting Council ;

as they are One in Nature, so they Agree in One;

and as in everything, so in this, the Salvation of men;

the Father signified His mind that His Son
should be sent to be the Saviour of men,

when He may be supposed to put such a question as in #Isa 6:8.

"Whom shall I Send, and Who Will Go for Us?"

the Son, knowing His Father's Will, and Assenting to The Everlasting Council ,
declared his agreement with The Everlasting Council , "Here Am I, Send Me";

and the Spirit Approving of the Father's Motion, and the Son's consent,
joined with the Divine Father in the Mission of Him, JESUS, The SON;

"Now the Lord God and His Spirit hath Sent Me", #Isa 48:16

and what Inexpressible Pleasure must such Unanimity Give to a believing soul,
to declare which is the Design of the Divine Consultation

...2e. That there has been such a Transaction between the Father and the Son,
which, with Propriety enough, may be called the "Counsel of Peace",
we have sufficient warrant from #2Co 5:19.

"God was in Christ Reconciling the world unto Himself,
not imputing their trespasses";

by the "world" is meant the Elect of God, He so Loved
, as to Send His Son to be the Saviour of,
and for the Life of whom Christ Gave His flesh, #Joh 3:16 6:51

and about the Peace and Reconciliation of those,
or in what way to make Peace and Atonement for them,

God was in Christ, or with Christ, Consulting, Contriving,
and Planning the Scheme of The ONE Everlasting Council of GRACE;

which was this, not to impute their sins unto them, but to Christ,
now called to be the Saviour of them;

and this contains the sum of what we mean by The Council of Peace.

..."3b2. Jehovah the Son, has the same Wisdom, Counsel,
and Understanding His Father has;

for all that He hath are His;

nor does Christ Think it any robbery to be Equal with Him;

He is Wisdom itself, or "wisdoms",
He is Possessed of the Most Consummate Wisdom;

in Him, even as Mediator, are hid all the Treasures of Wisdom and Knowledge;

and He Himself says, "Counsel is Mine, and Sound Wisdom",
#Pr 1:20 8:14 #Col 2:3

yea, he is called "the Wonderful, Counsellor", #Isa 9:6

which not only respects His Capacity and Ability
to Give the Best Counsel and Advice to men, as he does,

but to Assist in the Council of God Himself;

and so the "Septuagint" interpreters understood that passage, rendering it,
"the Angel of the Great Council";

whereby it seems as if those Jews then had a notion of this great transaction, and of the concern of the Messiah in it;

to whom the whole verse belongs: to which may be added,
that Christ the Son of God,
was as One Brought Up with His Divine Father,
Lay in His Bosom,
was Privy to His Designs,
and must be in His Council, and was on all accounts fit for it."

FROM:
The Everlasting Council
Between The Three Divine Persons,
Concerning The Salvation Of Men

His By Grace--"John Gill: A Body of Doctrinal & Practical Divinity"-Doctrinal Book 2, Chapter 6

John Gill was not confused at all as he correctly understands the eternal purpose of God revealed to the Church,Eph3:9-11.... the great salvation accomplished by the Son ,for a multitude of sinners worldwide.
He set His face like a flint to accomplish redemption and will no doubt seek and save the objects of His eternal unchanging love.

 

[JonC]

I added the blue words.


"Now all this was "written" concerning Him "in the volume of the book";
not of the scriptures in general only, nor of the Pentateuch in particular,
the only volume extant in David's time,

en kefalidi,

at the head and beginning of which
is a declaration of the Grace, Will, and Work of Christ, #Ge 3:15

nor only of the book of God's Purposes, #Ps 139:16

but of the Covenant; alluding to the writing, signing, and sealing of covenants;

the Covenant at Sinai is called, the book of the Covenant, #Ex 24:8.

Now in this volume, or book, as the Father's Proposal
is there Written and Contained,
so is the Son's Assent unto it, and Acceptance of it.

Add to all this, that the Character
in which Christ here addresses His Divine Father, "My God",
is a phrase expressive of Covenant Relation,
and is frequently so used both with regard to Christ and His people.

But, to observe no more, nothing more fully proves
Christ's Free and Full Assent
and Consent to do the will of his Father, proposed in the Covenant,
than His actual Performance of it.

Was it His Will that He should take the Care and Charge of all His elect, and lose none?
he has done it, #Joh 17:12.

Was it His Will that He should assume human nature?
the Word has been Made flesh and Dwelt among men, #Joh 1:14.

Was it His Will that He should obey the law?
He is become the end of the law for righteousness, #Ro 10:4.

Was it His Will that He should suffer death, the penalty of it?
He has Suffered, the Just for the unjust, to Bring them to God, #1Pe 3:18.

Was it His Will that He should make Himself an Offering for sin?
He has Given Himself to God, an Offering and a Sacrifice, of a sweet-smelling savour, #Eph 5:2

In a word, Was it His Will that He should Redeem His people from all their iniquities?
Yes, He has Obtained an Eternal Redemption of them, #Heb 9:12.

FROM:

The Part The Son Of God,
The Second Person,
Has Taken In The Covenant

His By Grace--"John Gill: A Body of Doctrinal & Practical Divinity"-Doctrinal Book 2, Chapter 9


The "council between the three Divine Persons,
shows Their Unanimity in The Everlasting Council ;

as they are One in Nature, so they Agree in One;

and as in everything, so in this, the Salvation of men;

the Father signified His mind that His Son
should be sent to be the Saviour of men,

when He may be supposed to put such a question as in #Isa 6:8.

"Whom shall I Send, and Who Will Go for Us?"

the Son, knowing His Father's Will, and Assenting to The Everlasting Council ,
declared his agreement with The Everlasting Council , "Here Am I, Send Me";

and the Spirit Approving of the Father's Motion, and the Son's consent,
joined with the Divine Father in the Mission of Him, JESUS, The SON;

"Now the Lord God and His Spirit hath Sent Me", #Isa 48:16

and what Inexpressible Pleasure must such Unanimity Give to a believing soul,
to declare which is the Design of the Divine Consultation

...2e. That there has been such a Transaction between the Father and the Son,
which, with Propriety enough, may be called the "Counsel of Peace",
we have sufficient warrant from #2Co 5:19.

"God was in Christ Reconciling the world unto Himself,
not imputing their trespasses";

by the "world" is meant the Elect of God, He so Loved
, as to Send His Son to be the Saviour of,
and for the Life of whom Christ Gave His flesh, #Joh 3:16 6:51

and about the Peace and Reconciliation of those,
or in what way to make Peace and Atonement for them,

God was in Christ, or with Christ, Consulting, Contriving,
and Planning the Scheme of The ONE Everlasting Council of GRACE;

which was this, not to impute their sins unto them, but to Christ,
now called to be the Saviour of them;

and this contains the sum of what we mean by The Council of Peace.

..."3b2. Jehovah the Son, has the same Wisdom, Counsel,
and Understanding His Father has;

for all that He hath are His;

nor does Christ Think it any robbery to be Equal with Him;

He is Wisdom itself, or "wisdoms",
He is Possessed of the Most Consummate Wisdom;

in Him, even as Mediator, are hid all the Treasures of Wisdom and Knowledge;

and He Himself says, "Counsel is Mine, and Sound Wisdom",
#Pr 1:20 8:14 #Col 2:3

yea, he is called "the Wonderful, Counsellor", #Isa 9:6

which not only respects His Capacity and Ability
to Give the Best Counsel and Advice to men, as he does,

but to Assist in the Council of God Himself;

and so the "Septuagint" interpreters understood that passage, rendering it,
"the Angel of the Great Council";

whereby it seems as if those Jews then had a notion of this great transaction, and of the concern of the Messiah in it;

to whom the whole verse belongs: to which may be added,
that Christ the Son of God,
was as One Brought Up with His Divine Father,
Lay in His Bosom,
was Privy to His Designs,
and must be in His Council, and was on all accounts fit for it."

FROM:
The Everlasting Council
Between The Three Divine Persons,
Concerning The Salvation Of Men

His By Grace--"John Gill: A Body of Doctrinal & Practical Divinity"-Doctrinal Book 2, Chapter 6

I'm not a big John Gill fan. He is interesting and often on point, but not without his problems. I find his teaching that Jesus is the Archangel Michael questionable to the extent I would not trust Gill in his delineation of the Christ in terms of the "counsel" within the Godhead.

 

[Alan Gross]

John Gill was not confused at all as he correctly understands the eternal purpose of God revealed to the Church,Eph3:9-11.... the great salvation accomplished by the Son ,for a multitude of sinners worldwide.
He set His face like a flint to accomplish redemption and will no doubt seek and save the objects of His eternal unchanging love.

"like a flint"!! There it is!!!

 

[Yeshua1]

I'm not a big John Gill fan. He is interesting and often on point, but not without his problems. I find his teaching that Jesus is the Archangel Michael questionable to the extent I would not trust Gill in his delineation of the Christ in terms of the "counsel" within the Godhead.

Least was Baptist!

 

[Alan Gross]

I'm not a big John Gill fan. He is interesting and often on point, but not without his problems. I find his teaching that Jesus is the Archangel Michael questionable to the extent I would not trust Gill in his delineation of the Christ in terms of the "counsel" within the Godhead.

Gill uses a LOT of Scriptures to describe what he means by Jesus Being a part of The Everlasting Covenant of Grace.

And a LOT of words.



DOCTRINAL DIVINITY ~ BOOK II

OF THE ACTS AND WORKS OF GOD


Chapter 6: Of the Everlasting Council
Chapter 7: Of the Everlasting Covenant of Grace
Chapter 8: Of the Part the Father took in the Covenant
Chapter 9: Of the Part the Son of God took in the Covenant
Chapter 10: Of Christ as the Covenant Head of the Elect
Chapter 11: Of Christ the Surety of the Covenant
Chapter 12: Of the Love of God
Chapter 13: Of Christ the Testator of the Covenant
Chapter 14: Of the Concern the Spirit has in the Covenant
Chapter 15: Of the Properties of the Covenant
Chapter 16: Of the Complacency and Delight the Divine
Persons had in Each Other From Everlasting

 

[JonC]

Gill uses a LOT of Scriptures to describe what he means by Jesus Being a part of The Everlasting Covenant of Grace.

And a LOT of words.



DOCTRINAL DIVINITY ~ BOOK II

OF THE ACTS AND WORKS OF GOD


Chapter 6: Of the Everlasting Council
Chapter 7: Of the Everlasting Covenant of Grace
Chapter 8: Of the Part the Father took in the Covenant
Chapter 9: Of the Part the Son of God took in the Covenant
Chapter 10: Of Christ as the Covenant Head of the Elect
Chapter 11: Of Christ the Surety of the Covenant
Chapter 12: Of the Love of God
Chapter 13: Of Christ the Testator of the Covenant
Chapter 14: Of the Concern the Spirit has in the Covenant
Chapter 15: Of the Properties of the Covenant
Chapter 16: Of the Complacency and Delight the Divine
Persons had in Each Other From Everlasting

I agree. He also uses a lot of assumptions (which does not make him wrong).

I just suspect if I were to say Jesus is the Michael the Archangel many here would dismiss anything else I would add about Christ.

 

[Alan Gross]

I agree. He also uses a lot of assumptions (which does not make him wrong).

I just suspect if I were to say Jesus is the Michael the Archangel many here would dismiss anything else I would add about Christ.

dunno

 

[Iconoclast]

Alan Gross,

Gill uses a LOT of Scriptures to describe what he means by Jesus Being a part of The Everlasting Covenant of Grace.

This thread is about Jesus place in the Covenant; Gill lays out a few of the scriptures;

Chapter 9:

Of The Part The Son Of God, The Second Person, Has Taken In The Covenant



The part which the Son of God takes, and the place and office he has in the covenant of grace, are next to be considered. Christ has so great a concern in the covenant, that he is said to be the Covenant itself; "I will give thee for a Covenant of the people",


Isa 42:6 49:8 his work, that which was proposed to him, and he agreed to do, is, as has been observed, the grand condition of the covenant, and he himself is the great blessing of it; he is the Alpha and the Omega, as of the scriptures, so of the covenant of grace;

he is the first and the last in it, the sum and substance of it; he is everything, ALL in ALL in it; all the blessings of it are the sure mercies of him, who is David, and David's Son; he is prevented with all the blessings of goodness, and the covenant people are blessed with all spiritual blessings in him, as their covenant head;

all the promises are made to him, and are all yea and amen in him; he sustains various characters and offices in the covenant. He is the representative Head of his people in it; he is the Mediator, Surety, Testator, and Messenger of it; of all which, more particularly and distinctly hereafter.



At present I shall only observe Christ's assent to his Father's proposals, his acceptance of them, and open declaration of his readiness and willingness to act according to them, which formally constitute the covenant and compact between them; his consent thereunto is fully expressed in #Ps 40:6-8. "Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering, and sin offering, hast thou not required. Then said I Lo, I come; in the volume of the book it is written of me: I delight to do thy will, O my God!


yea, thy law is within my heart". Which words, though spoken and written by David, yet as representing the Messiah, as is certain from the application of them to him by the apostle, in #Heb 10:5-10 according to whom, the time when these words were spoken, was when "he cometh into the world", that is, at his incarnation, when he came from heaven to earth, by the assumption of human nature, to do the will and work of his Father, which he proposed unto him; then he said all the above in fact, what he had before said in word, in promise; "Lo, I come to do thy will"; for that this was said before is plain, since it was known to David, in his time, and written by him, as the penman of the Holy Ghost, and as representing Christ, and was repeated and confirmed by Christ at his coming into the world: and when could it be said before, but in the covenant of grace? Likewise it appears, that this was said on the account of the insufficiency of legal sacrifices to atone for sin; in proof of which the apostle quotes the words, "It is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats should take away sin"; wherefore---he saith, "Sacrifice and offering thou wouldst not", &c. that is, though they were the institutions and appointment of God, yet he would not have them continued any longer than the coming of Christ, because of the weakness and unprofitableness of them to take away sin, and because they were to have, and had, their accomplishment in him;


in the foreviews of which this was said in David's time, and earlier by Christ, in the covenant of grace; in which, knowing his Father's will concerning sacrifices, and their continuance, as well as the insufficiency of them, freely declared that he was ready to come, in the fulness of time, and give himself an offering for sin; as his Father had proposed to him he should, #Isa 53:10.


Alan, have you noticed not one of these points is scripturally refuted?

 

[JonC]

dunno

My point, BTW, is not that I disagree with Gill on your post (you offered a very good post). I guess you could say that I get the same information from different people. And I do not believe that we have to completely agree with a source to confirm and appreciate what they have written.

The only "covenant" that is not directly substantiated in Scripture is the Adamic covenant. I've seen very good arguments by Sproul that it is implied. While that covenant cannot be proven in Scripture itself I think that it can be reasonably assumed that God covenanted with Adam at least in a "non-traditional" (implied rather than presented as a covenant beforehand) sense. This was the position of Sproul and J.I. Packer and I think both made a good case for that position.

One issue that is also not directly in Scripture is the idea that while God works with men within covenantal relationship God always works with men within such relationships. The "proof" I guess from Scripture would be the fact that there are several instances where God interacts with man in a substantial manner but not within a covenantal context. This is not really a "proof" either way (as a denial or affirmation).

My position is that God does work within covenants. I think that this is the reason for a "new covenant" rather than somehow just getting around an old covenant (a "new covenant" implies that God is a covenantal God).

 

[Yeshua1]

My point, BTW, is not that I disagree with Gill on your post (you offered a very good post). I guess you could say that I get the same information from different people. And I do not believe that we have to completely agree with a source to confirm and appreciate what they have written.

The only "covenant" that is not directly substantiated in Scripture is the Adamic covenant. I've seen very good arguments by Sproul that it is implied. While that covenant cannot be proven in Scripture itself I think that it can be reasonably assumed that God covenanted with Adam at least in a "non-traditional" (implied rather than presented as a covenant beforehand) sense. This was the position of Sproul and J.I. Packer and I think both made a good case for that position.

The main question have with that would be the nature of the Covenant relationship with Adam, as would it not still been graced based, not works?
Until he sinned against God, still in His created harmony?

 

[JonC]

Alan, have you noticed not one of these points is scripturally refuted?

Probably because no one involved in the thread disagrees with these points . The choir rarely throws hymnals at the preacher....it's the fellas in the back row that cause the problems.

 

[JonC]

The main question have with that would be the nature of the Covenant relationship with Adam, as would it not still been graced based, not works?
Until he sinned against God, still in His created harmony?

I'd have to say that covenant relationship was never actually by works (that works were never the means of salvation - either from becoming lost or returning from a lost state). But Adam did break that relationship that he held with God prior to the Fall because sin separates men from God (my summary, view).

 

[Yeshua1]

I'd have to say that covenant relationship was never actually by works (that works were never the means of salvation - either from becoming lost or returning from a lost state). But Adam did break that relationship that he held with God prior to the Fall because sin separates men from God (my summary, view).

Adam to me was by Grace in a sinless state, so maintained due to that before the fall by grace!
His creation state had him in a relationship with God right at creation....

 

[JonC]

Adam to me was by Grace in a sinless state, so maintained due to that before the fall by grace!
His creation state had him in a relationship with God right at creation....

Adam was certainly "without sin" when he was created. Scripture tells us that God made Adam "upright" (which I would insist means "sinless").

I think that we can look to the veil in the temple as representative of the separation between God and man that was brought on by Adam's sin. This was a change in relationship as man became at odds (or an "enemy") of God. And this state was reconciled by Christ (again, I would point to the torn veil as a visual representation of the work of reconciliation - that separation between God and man is reconciled through the blood of Christ).

 

[Yeshua1]

Adam was certainly "without sin" when he was created. Scripture tells us that God made Adam "upright" (which I would insist means "sinless").

I think that we can look to the veil in the temple as representative of the separation between God and man that was brought on by Adam's sin. This was a change in relationship as man became at odds (or an "enemy") of God. And this state was reconciled by Christ (again, I would point to the torn veil as a visual representation of the work of reconciliation - that separation between God and man is reconciled through the blood of Christ).

Adam changed his relationship due to now being spiritual dead...

 

[JonC]

Adam changed his relationship due to now being spiritual dead...

Well yes, that's kinda the point.

Jesus tells us that He is the life. Being apart from God is to be apart from Life and this separation that Adam experienced was a spiritual death. That is why I believe Jesus said to follow Him and "let the dead burry the dead" (a metaphor for those who are without spiritual Life burying those who are without physical life).

 

[Yeshua1]

Well yes, that's kinda the point.

Jesus tells us that He is the life. Being apart from God is to be apart from Life and this separation that Adam experienced was a spiritual death. That is why I believe Jesus said to follow Him and "let the dead burry the dead" (a metaphor for those who are without spiritual Life burying those who are without physical life).

So what about those who deny there was a real fall. as in we are not affected by it?

 

[JonC]

So what about those who deny there was a real fall. as in we are not affected by it?

I would go to that person and make sure that he is denying the fall as a real event (since Scripture does not speak of Adam as "falling" it could simply be an issue of definitions).

This is how Paul defined the Fall: "through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come." (Romans 5:12-14)

Maybe he is thinking the Fall means something else, but if not I'd ask what he does with Paul's theology regarding the....say...failure or sin of Adam. When you say "the Fall" he may be thinking of the myth in Catholic theology rather than Paul's theology so I'd work through it with him and use Scripture. Don't let him add anything not in the Bible and show him where sin has indeed entered the world through Adam's sin (don't use the word "fall" as it may be an unnecessary distraction).

 

[Yeshua1]

I would go to that person and make sure that he is denying the fall as a real event (since Scripture does not speak of Adam as "falling" it could simply be an issue of definitions).

This is how Paul defined the Fall: "through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come." (Romans 5:12-14)

Maybe he is thinking the Fall means something else, but if not I'd ask what he does with Paul's theology regarding the....say...failure or sin of Adam. When you say "the Fall" he may be thinking of the myth in Catholic theology rather than Paul's theology so I'd work through it with him and use Scripture. Don't let him add anything not in the Bible and show him where sin has indeed entered the world through Adam's sin (don't use the word "fall" as it may be an unnecessary distraction).

How about when some would say that we are now still sinners in the sense of fallen, as still fully free to accept Jesus as lord or not?