Calvinism and Unbelieving Loved Ones

[Steven Yeadon]

As someone whose friends and loved ones are overwhelmingly unbelievers, Calvinism seems downright cruel to the redeemed. So all the evangelizing and tears for years about loved ones going to hell are pointless, because God chose different to me from eternity.

I came to the faith four years ago, and Calvinism seems to me to only make sense to Christian families that for generations are born "chosen." It seems difficult to disentangle Calvinism from Christendom. I could be wrong, I am just being honest, because I could not imagine people from unbelieving backgrounds embracing Calvinism, unless it was the only theology presented to them when they came to saving faith.

I speak from wounding personal experience. No malice to anyone intended.

I reserve the right as the OP to have this thread closed and erased by the mods if things go off the rails. I know most of you, so that should not be a problem, but this is the internet, and I am being vulnerable.

 

[JonC]

I think you have made a very good point when you mention unbelievers embracing Calvinism IF it were the only theology presented to them when they came to faith. The gospel is the power of God unto salvation (not Calvinism or non-Calvinism). It seems that people move around after they are saved but when they are first saved stick with the group they were with when first saved, at least for awhile.

I have many friends who lost and became saved in a Calvinistic church with a Calvinistic faith. Some are still Calvinists and other's have moved on.

In regards to children of Calvinists, I think they tend to be Calvinists because they are often presented a Covenantal doctrine that extends from their saved parents to themselves as children. They grow up Calvinists just as a child in a Baptist church grows up Baptist (or Methodist, Catholic, etc.).

 

[Yeshua1]

As someone whose friends and loved ones are overwhelmingly unbelievers, Calvinism seems downright cruel to the redeemed. So all the evangelizing and tears for years about loved ones going to hell are pointless, because God chose different to me from eternity.

I came to the faith four years ago, and Calvinism seems to me to only make sense to Christian families that for generations are born "chosen." It seems difficult to disentangle Calvinism from Christendom. I could be wrong, I am just being honest, because I could not imagine people from unbelieving backgrounds embracing Calvinism, unless it was the only theology presented to them when they came to saving faith.

I speak from wounding personal experience. No malice to anyone intended.

I reserve the right as the OP to have this thread closed and erased by the mods if things go off the rails. I know most of you, so that should not be a problem, but this is the internet, and I am being vulnerable.

We all deserve Hell, and none of us know who the elect are of God, so keep praying and witnessing until you die or they do!

 

[Yeshua1]

I think you have made a very good point when you mention unbelievers embracing Calvinism IF it were the only theology presented to them when they came to faith. The gospel is the power of God unto salvation (not Calvinism or non-Calvinism). It seems that people move around after they are saved but when they are first saved stick with the group they were with when first saved, at least for awhile.

I have many friends who lost and became saved in a Calvinistic church with a Calvinistic faith. Some are still Calvinists and other's have moved on.

In regards to children of Calvinists, I think they tend to be Calvinists because they are often presented a Covenantal doctrine that extends from their saved parents to themselves as children. They grow up Calvinists just as a child in a Baptist church grows up Baptist (or Methodist, Catholic, etc.).

The Calvinists that I know personally came out from Catholic church, legalist church, or did not know much until started to really bible study!

 

[canadyjd]

As someone whose friends and loved ones are overwhelmingly unbelievers, Calvinism seems downright cruel to the redeemed. So all the evangelizing and tears for years about loved ones going to hell are pointless, because God chose different to me from eternity.....

After I was first saved, we took an inter church trip on our buses to an event. On the way home, we picked up a hitchhiker.

I witnessed to the young man, a professing atheist, for almost two hours on the way back, but he could not be moved to salvation.

The next day, I spoke with my pastor, explaining how I felt like a failure in “soul winning”.

My pastor said, “Well, if you didn’t think it was all about you, you wouldn’t be feeling so bad right now.”

We are privileged to have a role in salvation. We present the gospel, we pray, we encourage, we trust God to show mercy in His wisdom.

I don’t see God choosing as being “cruel”. It gives me great comfort to know it isn’t up to me.

peace to you

 

[Dave G]

As someone whose friends and loved ones are overwhelmingly unbelievers, Calvinism seems downright cruel to the redeemed.

This may seem blunt, but it's not my intention to harm you, Steven.

It's my intention to be honest and not to hold back from answering your post as honestly and truthfully as I can.
Think of it as "the wounds of a friend are better than the kisses of an enemy".



I think that a lot of what the problem is, from where I'm standing, is that many professing Christians think that what is commonly called "Calvinism" portrays something alien and unbiblical....
It's not.
To me, it's what one starts to see when a believer has studied God's word for a very long time and comes to know "the how and why" that God has saved them...
Not just that salvation is by grace through faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross for them.

To the new believer, I'm sure that the contents of Acts of the Apostles 13:48, Romans 8:29-30, Romans 9, Romans 11, Ephesians 1, Ephesians 2, 2 Thessalonians 2 and many other passages ( especially in the Old Testament ) seem to portray a "cruel" God who does as He pleases and saves whom He pleases.
I'm also equally sure that the contents of the Psalms, in their entirety, would seem to portray a very unloving God to most who dig in and really see what the words are saying.
But the Scriptures say what they say, and though we wrestle with what's on the pages, we have a choice to make:

Do we as believers really believe the words, or do we simply hack it up, emphasizing some "verses" over others, and not take it all seriously because it comes from the God of our salvation?
Of course, you are free to disagree, but I will not mince words when it comes to what I see on the pages of His word.

Many call it "Calvinism"...
I call the "TULIP" a short and sobering summary of what the Bible teaches on salvation and man's reason for needing a Saviour.

 

[Dave G]

@Steven Yeadon :

About loved ones:
One thing I've discovered the hard way, is this...

To the lost ( who think that the preaching of the cross is foolishness, 1 Corinthians 1:18 ), anything in the Bible is not going to make sense and will be rejected out of hand because it comes from God.
It took me a long time to see it, but I eventually realized that none of what's in there is for them anyway...
It's for me and and others like me:

Believers in Jesus Christ, the Son of God who lived and died for them.

If you haven't discovered yet how different you are from your fellow man ( friends, neighbors and relatives ), you will soon.
You will experience persecution for being His, and you will experience more of it, especially if you live a godly life.
This next part isn't meant to scare you, but to strengthen you for what I know is going to come in your life as a believer in this present world:

" For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;" ( Philippians 1:29 ).


I don't like that last part, but I've learned to accept that it comes with the territory.
I also know that the Lord loves me, and I have nothing to fear from Him or from men...
For who or what shall separate me from the love of God ( Romans 8:31-39 )?

He is our helper, Steven, not men.

With all that said,
I too pray for those who are not believers to see the things that I have, and to have hope after this life.
To cast themselves upon a God who loves them and sent His Son to give them the gift of eternal life, which is to know Him and His Son.
As a "Calvinist", my compassion for those who do not believe is not diminished just because I understand what's behind a person being saved.

I still want to see people come to Christ.

 

[Dave G]

I came to the faith four years ago, and Calvinism seems to me to only make sense to Christian families that for generations are born "chosen."

I can understand that observation.
But I didn't come from a tradition of being taught it...

Quite the contrary.

It seems difficult to disentangle Calvinism from Christendom. I could be wrong, I am just being honest, because I could not imagine people from unbelieving backgrounds embracing Calvinism, unless it was the only theology presented to them when they came to saving faith.

In a way I almost envy you...
Which I shouldn't, because it's not godly to do so.

But I never had your perspective as early on as you seem to have.
I was 25 years old in the Lord before I ever heard of election, predestination and so forth.
And it wasn't on a forum, it was strictly through a friend showing me 3 Scripture passages and him asking me what I thought of them....
No narrative, no, "here's what I think they say".

Just me, my Bible and 3 passages.
It turned my entire world upside down.

What you call "Calvinism" is what I came to understand gradually...it was never taught to me by anyone.
I cannot become "disentangled" from it, because that is what I see the Scriptures teaching about how and why I was saved after 42 years as a believer in Jesus Christ.
But it took a long time for me to see it for myself.


Finally,
I take a lot of heat on this forum for it, but I figure that that also comes with the territory.


May God bless you with many good things, and comfort you in your walk with Him.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

I can understand that observation.
But I didn't come from a tradition of being taught it...

Quite the contrary.

In a way I almost envy you...
Which I shouldn't, because it's not godly to do so.

But I never had your perspective as early on as you seem to have.
I was 25 years old in the Lord before I ever heard of election, predestination and so forth.
And it wasn't on a forum, it was strictly through a friend showing me 3 Scripture passages and him asking me what I thought of them....
No narrative, no, "here's what I think they say".

Just me, my Bible and 3 passages.
It turned my entire world upside down.

What you call "Calvinism" is what I came to understand gradually...it was never taught to me by anyone.
I cannot become "disentangled" from it, because that is what I see the Scriptures teaching about how and why I was saved after 42 years as a believer in Jesus Christ.
But it took a long time for me to see it for myself.


Finally,
I take a lot of heat on this forum for it, but I figure that that also comes with the territory.


May God bless you with many good things, and comfort you in your walk with Him.

Brother, I have much to tell you about my journey in my next post. Your post did not surprise or shock me in the least. I will have to share how I came to believe and even how I accepted TULIP for a few months after finding Arminian explanations foolish. This, before wrestling with certain other scriptures to become a 5-point Arminian. To then reject 5-point Arminianism to be as I am now. To wrestle again with TULIP now. I may post tomorrow though, because I am emotionally weary now, the President's health and my prayers for him is in the background.

Also Proverbs 27:6 and many other scriptures tell me to thank you for your honesty in disagreeing with me. I understand it was meant in love. Thank you also for wisely choosing to preface your posts with a statement that you are being honest and mean no ill will.

 

[Reynolds]

As someone whose friends and loved ones are overwhelmingly unbelievers, Calvinism seems downright cruel to the redeemed. So all the evangelizing and tears for years about loved ones going to hell are pointless, because God chose different to me from eternity.

I came to the faith four years ago, and Calvinism seems to me to only make sense to Christian families that for generations are born "chosen." It seems difficult to disentangle Calvinism from Christendom. I could be wrong, I am just being honest, because I could not imagine people from unbelieving backgrounds embracing Calvinism, unless it was the only theology presented to them when they came to saving faith.

I speak from wounding personal experience. No malice to anyone intended.

I reserve the right as the OP to have this thread closed and erased by the mods if things go off the rails. I know most of you, so that should not be a problem, but this is the internet, and I am being vulnerable.

I don't really have a problem with Calvinism. I have a problem with many internet Calvinists though. If we attempt to judge God by our moral standards, we error. His ways are perfect. Our ways are far from perfect.

 

[Quantrill]

As someone whose friends and loved ones are overwhelmingly unbelievers, Calvinism seems downright cruel to the redeemed. So all the evangelizing and tears for years about loved ones going to hell are pointless, because God chose different to me from eternity.

I came to the faith four years ago, and Calvinism seems to me to only make sense to Christian families that for generations are born "chosen." It seems difficult to disentangle Calvinism from Christendom. I could be wrong, I am just being honest, because I could not imagine people from unbelieving backgrounds embracing Calvinism, unless it was the only theology presented to them when they came to saving faith.

I speak from wounding personal experience. No malice to anyone intended.

I reserve the right as the OP to have this thread closed and erased by the mods if things go off the rails. I know most of you, so that should not be a problem, but this is the internet, and I am being vulnerable.

I think every believer has to come to grips with knowing certain friends or loved ones died rejecting Christ. Whether one believes the Calvinist or Armenian doctrine, they still have to face it. Either God didn't 'choose' or He didn't answer our prayer that this certain one would willfully come to the Lord. Many who are not believers find both offensive, that God would send people to hell for that.

For me, I always remember that what God does is right. I didn't say God does the right. I said, what God does is right. If God saves 3,000 souls, He is right in doing so. If He slays 3,000 souls, He is right in doing so. If He saves me, He is right in doing so. And if He doesn't save my friend, He is right in doing so. Through or excluding whatever method that may be.

Those who go to hell will reject both the Gospel presented by Calvinist's and the Gospel presented by Armenianist's . Why? Because they are not rejecting these 'doctrines'. They are rejecting Jesus Christ. And they don't want Him. Mind you, they don't want to be in Hell. But neither do they want to be with God and Christ.

So, when witnessing, I don't care about Calvinist or Armenian doctrine. I just present the Person of Jesus Christ. I want to know what they think about Christ. Who was or is He? Ones doctrine will develop later. On the job I even began using what I call my shotgun approach when encountering someone I hadn't known. We would be discussing something totally different than God, such as the weather, or sports, or politics. And out of the blue I would turn and ask them, 'what do you think about Jesus Christ?'. The expression on their faces was priceless. I gave them no time to develop an answer. I almost could tell by that expression what they were going to say.

(Matt. 16:13) "Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?"

(Matt. 16:15) "But whom say ye that I am?"

(Matt. 16:16) "And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God."

(Matt. 16:17) "And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."

If anyone believes that Christ is the Son of God, it is only because God has revealed it to them. When I consider whether one is saved or not, I am not looking at doctrine. I am looking at what they have done with the Person of Christ.

Quantrill

 

[Steven Yeadon]

I think that a lot of what the problem is, from where I'm standing, is that many professing Christians think that what is commonly called "Calvinism" portrays something alien and unbiblical....
It's not.
To me, it's what one starts to see when a believer has studied God's word for a very long time and comes to know "the how and why" that God has saved them...
Not just that salvation is by grace through faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross for them

Those are words to ponder. I will say that Calvinism makes better sense of some verses than synergism. Ephesians 1-3, Romans 9-11, some other verses in the NT. That said, as I argued in my three biblical defenses of synergism, it fails to make sense of a whole host of verses. I will not call you 100% wrong, I will not call myself 100% right. That's obvious to me. My position has holes, and if even one scripture is at odds with a position of someone, then it is ultimately in error. I am in error, but I must warn you with sincerity, so are you. I have been for four years, asking, seeking, and knocking, perhaps not wholeheartedly with all my being. For, I am getting closer to understanding things but am not there yet and the Father has the wisdom I seek.

To the new believer, I'm sure that the contents of Acts of the Apostles 13:48, Romans 8:29-30, Romans 9, Romans 11, Ephesians 1, Ephesians 2, 2 Thessalonians 2 and many other passages ( especially in the Old Testament ) seem to portray a "cruel" God who does as He pleases and saves whom He pleases.
I'm also equally sure that the contents of the Psalms, in their entirety, would seem to portray a very unloving God to most who dig in and really see what the words are saying.
But the Scriptures say what they say, and though we wrestle with what's on the pages, we have a choice to make:

God does all He pleases and Calls whom He pleases. He hardens whom he pleases. He is merciful to whom He pleases. That is apparent form scripture to me. God has given some people special blessing and in effect salvation form before birth. How else do we look at Isaac, Jacob, or Moses? Jesus is the model for such blessed ones. He is the Son from eternity after all. He cannot sin or go to hell, but was and is a man. The problem I will repeat is that there are very straightforward scriptures saying God wants all men to be saved. There are as many scriptures arguing such in scripture as I can find about the Chosen of the Father. I agree with you, there are some chosen to eternal blessing form before birth, but I see no place for the belief God chose some for eternal damnation form before birth, except Romans 9. However, Romans 9 cannot be at war with other NT and OT verses. Therefore, I think I am reading it wrongly.

As for God in the OT being cruel, that is a particularly odious thing to me. While it is true to our Western and Modern sensibilities, which I embraced for years as an atheist, Deist, or Moderate Baptist. It is not a defensible position from Synergism or Monergism. The Torah is blessed and righteous, even though I am not under it. While it may appear "barbaric" to Westerners and Moderns, that does not change what it is: holy, righteous and good (Romans 7:12).

As for the character of Yahweh. As a believer I must say He is the best person I have ever met. The story only as revealed so far before the End of the Age, the Millennial Kingdom, and the eternal Eden leads me to see Him as the great and wonderful Father of us all. God is good. As Job discovered, a story very dear to me, for I feel I have been through like amounts of suffering, something I don't share much. I found in torment for years and years as a deathly ill man that God knew how to run the universe, not me. Like Job, I cannot put on glory or instruct the creation or rule the world, or any such thing. I am puny and mortal. That is what I am. But oh the amazing grace and mercy of God to make us heirs with Jesus Christ.

Do we as believers really believe the words, or do we simply hack it up, emphasizing some "verses" over others, and not take it all seriously because it comes from the God of our salvation?
Of course, you are free to disagree, but I will not mince words when it comes to what I see on the pages of His word.

I see as you do in a way. We all hack up verses, as Proverbs tell us the ways of man are good to him (Proverbs 16:2). I cannot explain the Word totally with a clean conscience yet. That is why I refuse to teach in church and have relegated myself to growing in knowledge, wisdom, and faith.

If you haven't discovered yet how different you are from your fellow man ( friends, neighbors and relatives ), you will soon.
You will experience persecution for being His, and you will experience more of it, especially if you live a godly life.
This next part isn't meant to scare you, but to strengthen you for what I know is going to come in your life as a believer in this present world:

That I know too well. I am completely different form the man I was five years ago. I became a Christian four years ago. I am ignored and really mocked by many unbelievers I know. I have gone through several churches already. Each one was out of sync with the Word in a major way. They were foolish to me and were unwilling to turn on Modernity, Western culture, secular America, and so many other groups in the world. I have been through agony for years at a time. Things got no better as a Christian, but I take heart and sing when alone. I sing thanks to God for suffering for Him in some way for I know Satan is my tormentor in illness.

I don't like that last part, but I've learned to accept that it comes with the territory.
I also know that the Lord loves me, and I have nothing to fear from Him or from men...
For who or what shall separate me from the love of God ( Romans 8:31-39 )?

He is our helper, Steven, not men.

Amen!

With all that said,
I too pray for those who are not believers to see the things that I have, and to have hope after this life.
To cast themselves upon a God who loves them and sent His Son to give them the gift of eternal life, which is to know Him and His Son.
As a "Calvinist", my compassion for those who do not believe is not diminished just because I understand what's behind a person being saved.

I still want to see people come to Christ.

That's great, I encourage you to love the Lost no matter what you hold to doctrinally.

In a way I almost envy you...
Which I shouldn't, because it's not godly to do so.

Sir, I will need to share with you how I was saved. It would be good to have another crack at it. It will explain how almost absurd your statement is to me. Envying me is to envy Esau (my old man) and Job.

 

[kyredneck]

If anyone believes that Christ is the Son of God, it is only because God has revealed it to them.

^WINNER!^

3 Jesus answered and said to him, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;`
7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above; Jn 3 YLT

 

[Craig Hooker]

As someone whose friends and loved ones are overwhelmingly unbelievers, Calvinism seems downright cruel to the redeemed. So all the evangelizing and tears for years about loved ones going to hell are pointless, because God chose different to me from eternity.

I came to the faith four years ago, and Calvinism seems to me to only make sense to Christian families that for generations are born "chosen." It seems difficult to disentangle Calvinism from Christendom. I could be wrong, I am just being honest, because I could not imagine people from unbelieving backgrounds embracing Calvinism, unless it was the only theology presented to them when they came to saving faith.

I speak from wounding personal experience. No malice to anyone intended.

I reserve the right as the OP to have this thread closed and erased by the mods if things go off the rails. I know most of you, so that should not be a problem, but this is the internet, and I am being vulnerable.

Down right cruel to he redeemed? Why would you assume your loved ones will never come to faith? You seemed resigned to their fate not knowing the future. If they are elect they will come to faith in Gods good time.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

Down right cruel to he redeemed? Why would you assume your loved ones will never come to faith? You seemed resigned to their fate not knowing the future. If they are elect they will come to faith in Gods good time.

I am being fatalistic. Thank you for pointing that out.

 

[Barry Johnson]

We all deserve Hell, and none of us know who the elect are of God, so keep praying and witnessing until you die or they do!

We all don't need to go to hell ,that's the point . Jesus died for all .

 

[Barry Johnson]

As someone whose friends and loved ones are overwhelmingly unbelievers, Calvinism seems downright cruel to the redeemed. So all the evangelizing and tears for years about loved ones going to hell are pointless, because God chose different to me from eternity.

I came to the faith four years ago, and Calvinism seems to me to only make sense to Christian families that for generations are born "chosen." It seems difficult to disentangle Calvinism from Christendom. I could be wrong, I am just being honest, because I could not imagine people from unbelieving backgrounds embracing Calvinism, unless it was the only theology presented to them when they came to saving faith.

I speak from wounding personal experience. No malice to anyone intended.

I reserve the right as the OP to have this thread closed and erased by the mods if things go off the rails. I know most of you, so that should not be a problem, but this is the internet, and I am being vulnerable.

Calvinism does great harm to Believers and unbelievers. If it is the case that all 5 points of Calvinism are false, and i believe they are , then its completely unnecessary for christianity . Only harm can come from it . No one could be attracted to it as an unbeliever ,and in my opinion I've personally seen the damage its done to geniune believers / churches/ families ect .Otherwise gentile characters become hardened and apathetic to the lost , legalistic ect .
Calvinists of course ,once inside , do not see themselves change ,or see how Calvinism represents God or the lost . You can only see the issue ( clearly) once you come out from the system .

 

[canadyjd]

Calvinism does great harm to Believers and unbelievers. If it is the case that all 5 points of Calvinism are false, and i believe they are...... No one could be attracted to it as an unbeliever...... You can only see the issue ( clearly) once you come out from the system .

No one is attracted to any spiritual truth without God’s intervention in their life.

Harm to believers and unbelievers? “Easy believing” does great harm to all people.

Jesus said “many” would stand before God in the day of judgment thinking they would be allowed entry into heaven only to be told, “depart from Me,”... Until that moment, they believed they were saved. Why? Because they were looking to their good works, rather than their relationship with God, to ensure salvation.

What could be more harmful than to give someone a false sense of salvation?

Peace to you

 

[Dave G]

I am in error, but I must warn you with sincerity, so are you.

From your perspective?
I agree.

In other words, Steven, when compared to where you're at "theologically", I realize that to you, I look to be in error.
Does that mean that my understanding of the Scriptures is ultimately wrong?

We'll see.
But please keep in mind that if anyone understands it properly, I believe that to also be a gift of God in His grace and mercy to someone...and ultimately, even the proper understanding of His word is therefore a gift and will abase us as men at His feet.

Nevertheless, as the Lord is the Judge of all of us, it will all come out in that Day and every mouth will be stopped.


That said,
What I'm not going to do is to adopt a position that so many I have seen take, and that is this:
Many today, when questioned deeply, will outright tell you that God's word cannot be known and understood completely, given much study of it, by someone who is saved...
But I can honestly assure you that it can.
Otherwise, the Lord would not have had Paul tell Timothy this:

" Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." ( 2 Timothy 2:15 ).

If Scripture cannot be understood by those to whom it is written, then to me, we as believers in Jesus Christ should simply fold up our tents and forget His promises.
I won't settle for that, my friend.

That's why even after 42 years as a believer, I continue to seek Him through His word and through His promises.
In fact, there is hardly a day that goes by that He doesn't reveal something to me in His word more deeply than I was aware of the day before.

 

[Dave G]

I see as you do in a way. We all hack up verses, as Proverbs tell us the ways of man are good to him (Proverbs 16:2). I cannot explain the Word totally with a clean conscience yet. That is why I refuse to teach in church and have relegated myself to growing in knowledge, wisdom, and faith.

That my friend, is what I see as wisdom talking.

Many years ago I was tempted to get up and preach in front of people, but something deep inside my spirit said, "Stop!".
I realized that I was not properly fitted out for it, so every urge I felt I resisted.

God does all He pleases and Calls whom He pleases. He hardens whom he pleases. He is merciful to whom He pleases. That is apparent form scripture to me. God has given some people special blessing and in effect salvation form before birth. How else do we look at Isaac, Jacob, or Moses? Jesus is the model for such blessed ones. He is the Son from eternity after all. He cannot sin or go to hell, but was and is a man. The problem I will repeat is that there are very straightforward scriptures saying God wants all men to be saved. There are as many scriptures arguing such in scripture as I can find about the Chosen of the Father. I agree with you, there are some chosen to eternal blessing form before birth, but I see no place for the belief God chose some for eternal damnation form before birth, except Romans 9. However, Romans 9 cannot be at war with other NT and OT verses. Therefore, I think I am reading it wrongly.

As for God in the OT being cruel, that is a particularly odious thing to me. While it is true to our Western and Modern sensibilities, which I embraced for years as an atheist, Deist, or Moderate Baptist. It is not a defensible position from Synergism or Monergism. The Torah is blessed and righteous, even though I am not under it. While it may appear "barbaric" to Westerners and Moderns, that does not change what it is: holy, righteous and good (Romans 7:12).

As for the character of Yahweh. As a believer I must say He is the best person I have ever met. The story only as revealed so far before the End of the Age, the Millennial Kingdom, and the eternal Eden leads me to see Him as the great and wonderful Father of us all. God is good. As Job discovered, a story very dear to me, for I feel I have been through like amounts of suffering, something I don't share much. I found in torment for years and years as a deathly ill man that God knew how to run the universe, not me. Like Job, I cannot put on glory or instruct the creation or rule the world, or any such thing. I am puny and mortal. That is what I am. But oh the amazing grace and mercy of God to make us heirs with Jesus Christ.

Steven,
It's amazing to me the progress that the Lord has made in you through your studies in just 4 years as a believer.
I don't think you realize just how closely we agree on a majority of things.

To me, it is readily apparent that you treat His words seriously and with reverence.
If I were in your neck of the woods, I seriously doubt that I would have any trouble sitting down with you and glorifying Him together, despite our disagreements.