Featured A Novel Soteriological Explanation in the Calvinism vs Arminianism Debate

I added "just" because that was the only thing you said was different. And yes, in a sense, He created copies of Himself--made us in His image. Jesus was also His image. Does that mean you don't think Jesus is God or even like God in any way?

About man:
[1Co 11:7 KJV] For a man indeed ought not to cover [his] head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
About Jesus:
[Col 1:15 KJV] Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

So if we are like God in some ways (made in His image), then you need to explain why our emotions are one of the things that are not like God's, since the bible clearly states that we have emotions and God has emotions.

I appreciate that you have to resort to a "basic theology", which you feel doesn't need to be supported by scripture. That tells me you can't find scriptural support for your position. That's called a "presupposition". And you have to be careful with them, because it may be hard to tell the difference between a good one and a bad one. (Hint: that's why we read scripture--to find out the truth about God that He has revealed to us.)

Ummmm...that wasn't an analogy. My point was that God gave us language and that language can be used to describe things about God. If that's not so, then our language doesn't really mean what we think it means, and even our conversation here is of no value.

Surprise is an emotion, but it's not all emotions. Just because God might exhibit emotions, doesn't mean something took Him by surprise. Anger, Joy, sadness are all emotions that don't require surprise. God exhibits all of these, and all reactions in most cases to someone else's actions. This is biblical, so why do you deny it?

But since you brought up surprise, specifically, why is it out of the question that God could exhibit surprise?

It's because of your "basic theology" presupposition that God's omniscience encompasses all timeframes. Yet the bible doesn't speak in that kind of language. Rather God deals with us in our time and "searches" things out. He knows things when they happen. I expect He observes things as they happen. Jeremiah 17:10 says: “I the Lord search the heart and examine the mind, to reward each person according to their conduct, according to what their deeds deserve.” If God already knew what each person was going to do, why would He need to search and examine? In fact, if God already knew, because He searched and examined, what they were going to do before they even existed, HOW could He search hearts and examine minds--hearts and minds that don't yet exist??

So if God searches hearts and examines minds, is it possible that He could be surprised? Maybe. Here's one option:
[Isa 5:2 KJV] And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes.
[Isa 5:4 KJV] What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?
The chapter goes on to tell what God is going to do to His people because His vineyard brought forth the wrong kind of grapes despite everything He had done to get good grapes.

This is poetic language, admittedly, but it tells a story that is used to justify punishing His people. There's a reality behind the parable, and if the parable is taken as written, it's hard to get anything else out of it than that God is surprised by the result of His tender care of His people.

I'd like to challenge you, TA, to read the bible first with the idea of learning what it has to say about God before you apply what you already know about God. It might surprise you!

 

Derf B,

The Biblical God is never surprised by anything. That is not possible.

 

Again, as you are asserting this without biblical support, I can only assume it comes from your presuppositions, rather than from the Bible. Our presuppositions are not trustworthy as standalone sources for truth.

You might be right, but your bare assertion is not adequate for me to know you are right. And it shouldn’t be adequate for you, either. Even Paul’s bare assertions weren’t adequate for the Bereans—they had to search the scriptures, and were considered noble for doing so. Be noble, Iconoclast! Find me a verse that says God is never surprised. I already found one that seems to say He is surprised under some circumstances.


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First things first... You do not understand what is meant by "image." Image does not refer to a copy; image refers to a representative function. Man is the governor; God is the King (who appoints the governor to do what is right in His eyes).

What is more, you should understand the difference between the communicable attributes of God and the incommunicable attributes. Since there are incommunicable attributes, He could not have made copies of Himself.

The Archangel

 

I’m just saying, “image” means something in us is like something in or if God. Emotions are something we have and God has. If we both have emotions, why do you get to say that ours and His are not alike in any way (fundamentally different)?


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I'm reading the bible without certain theological glasses on . The problem is some can no longer view their bibles without these glasses distorting there views . I can see a lot of folks parroting their favourite so called 'giant of the faith '. This is the problem with christianity today . They don't trust the bible, but rather tradition.

 

Most Christians are not getting there theology from the bible but from theologians and ' orthadoxy ' . All good godly men down through the ages have taught this and we must go along with brother such and such " . " I think you.ll find in the Greek such and such, blah blah " . " Brother Gill says such and such and John Macathur said blah blah " . This is where the majority of opinions are coming from.

 

No, it doesn't. What you're describing is more akin to "Likeness."

Our emotions are not alike because of who He is and who we are--He is the Creator, we are the creature. In making us in His likeness, He did not make us as copies of Himself. We do not exhibit omnipresence or omniscience. But, we do bear some resemblance to our Creator. He is creative (obviously); we are creative. But we are not creative in the same way. He has emotions and we have emotions. But, God's emotions do not express themselves like ours do, and they cannot. We are fallen, He is not. He does not experience misguided love that would lead into folly or lust, but we do.

The Archangel

 

Please explain? According to Romans 4:1-5 faith is not Abraham's work.

 

Which did not address my charge. What Bible are you reading that says nothing about God choosing?

 

Sounds like what you are doing.

 

Here’s one entry from a Bing search on synonyms for “image”:
semblance or likeness.
"we are made in the image of God"

I must say, Archangel, that someone with your screen name should be more careful to use words correctly.

We may not have the same capacity to create, but you have no basis to say we’re not creative in the same way.

The same goes for emotions. If the words mean anything they must mean that we share the emotive capability in some way. It certainly can’t mean that emotions are incommunicable attributes, since you admit we both have them.

I agree with you here, as I stated this same thing before. But that is the result /reaction to the emotions, not the emotions themselves.

 

This is a little tricky but here goes, in Romans 4:5, work is contrasted to with faith, thus faith is not an action to earn or merit salvation. And as said before, John 6:29 and the ambiguous "work of God" means the work (singular) is to believe in Christ.

 

Many trust the bible, even when it says this;
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

 

See... you're using a dictionary. I'm using a Hebrew lexicon and what the people hearing "Image" would have thought. It means representative. Likeness is different. The words "Image" and "Likeness" in Hebrew are different words. And, you ought to know better than to define biblical words which are rich in theological meaning with modern dictionaries that are ignorant of the biblical usage.

Seriously? Let's see you call the non-existent into existence. I'll wait.

Emotions are not incommunicable. But, God's emotions are not what ours are. That is plain through the warp and woof of Scripture. God is spoken of "regretting," but it cannot be what our regret is. Most of what is spoken of God's emotions are anthropomorphisms that give us a clue, but not a full picture, as to His emotions. Again, this is basic theology.

The Archangel

 

"Derf B,

,

I do not recall the word surprise being found in the bible. The bible is God's special revelation of Himself to mankind, and believers in particular.

When we look at a definition of your word surprise here is what we find.
verb (used with object), sur·prised, sur·pris·ing.
to strike or occur to with a sudden feeling of wonder or astonishment, as through unexpectedness:Her beauty surprised me.
to come upon or discover suddenly and unexpectedly:We surprised the children raiding the cookie jar.
to make an unexpected assault on (an unprepared army, fort, person, etc.).
to elicit or bring out suddenly and without warning:to surprise the facts from the witness.
noun
an act or instance of surprising or being surprised.
something that surprises someone; a completely unexpected occurrence, appearance, or statement:His announcement was a surprise to all.
an assault, as on an army or a fort, made without warning.
a coming upon unexpectedly; detecting in the act; taking unawares.

The bible declares that we have an all-knowing God. How can an all-knowing God, not know anything as to be surprised???

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You know what they say about assumptions For example, what if a person read these verses and believed them, where do you see this idea of a surprised deity in this, explain it to us, maybe I do not see something that you do.

139 O lord, thou hast searched me, and known me.

2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.

3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.

4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O Lord, thou knowest it altogether.

5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.

6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.

7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;

10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.

11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.

12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.

14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.


I do not see God being surprised by Jeremiah being a prophet...is this a presupposition or biblically revealed truth?
5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

I see nowhere in scripture God saying...wow what a surprise, you have made yourself into a prophet...who knew??

 

So am I to understand you see faith as a work man must do?

 

I am sick and tired of folks who ascribe to me what scripture plainly teaches, and what many scholars, which certainly excludes me, believe. If you have a view, present it. Stop all these deceitful practices. I presented the mainstream view. All these guys that claim not to see any difference between a work and works of the Law should be held accountable for their attack on truth.

 

It is my understanding the faith is a work of God, John 6:29, never the work of a man, Romans 4:1-5.