Whats wrong with Calvinists ?

[Barry Johnson]

@Barry Johnson you have made clear time and time again that you do not know what Calvinists actually belive/preach/teach nor do you want to know. So you keep pushing false versions of what we believe and attack us for it....

Calvinism is not exactly monolithic so it can depend on the calvinist you speak to . I notice this on leighton flowers and Kevin Thompson s channels on YouTube. In fact just about everyone who challenges Calvinism is accused with not understanding Calvinism. What's going on here ? Can only Calvinsts understand Calvinism, is this part of the secret inside knowing , bestowed on the ' chosen ' ?

 

[SavedByGrace]

Because they genuinely love the lost and grieve for their condition and desire them to come to faith in Christ.

but, not ALL the lost, only the "elect", so your reasoning is moot!

 

[SavedByGrace]

@Barry Johnson you have made clear time and time again that you do not know what Calvinists actually belive/preach/teach nor do you want to know. So you keep pushing false versions of what we believe and attack us for it....

that is really funny, because most "Calvinists" themselves don't know what they believe!

 

[canadyjd]

but, not ALL the lost, only the "elect", so your reasoning is moot!

Again, you don’t understand. They don’t attempt to pick who is elect. They preach to all praying they will come to salvation. They are genuinely concerned for the salvation of all they preach to.

peace to you

 

[SavedByGrace]

Again, you don’t understand. They don’t attempt to pick who is elect. They preach to all praying they will come to salvation. They are genuinely concerned for the salvation of all they preach to.

peace to you

very simple. If the Lord did with Paul in Acts chapter 9, where He directed Ananias to visit Paul, and in chapter 10, Peter is instructed to visit Cornelius, both for their salvation. Why can't this same God, Who is Almighty, do exactly the same for ALL those who are "elect", (since their number is not too great, as Jesus says, "FEW" will find the Way), for their salvation; rather than the whole world, that never can be saved? BECAUSE, He is willing that NONE of this entire human race were lost! Yet there are some like you, who so much are against the salvation of every human being, even though you pretend that you are not, yet your own theology is AGAINST this!

 

[canadyjd]

..... Yet there are some like you, who so much are against the salvation of every human being, even though you pretend that you are not, yet your own theology is AGAINST this!

Again, you are ignorant of what I, or others who hold to the doctrines of grace, believe.

You are making personal attacks against me when you say I am “against salvation” of anyone and “pretending” to be concerned for the lost.

I had hoped you were sincerely asking a question about why we preach so passionately to all.

I see now you have no desire for a meaningful conversation, so I will bow out.

Thanks for the conversation

peace to you

 

[Iconoclast]

Isnt it all of God ?[/QUOeTE]
If you read Roman's 10, and mt.28 with a view to be obedient, you would have no need to ask your question. God has not only ordained those He is saving,but the means to save them.
This of course has been posted many times but you ignore it because you do not seem to want the answer

 

[atpollard]

that is really funny, because most "Calvinists" themselves don't know what they believe!

Which brings us to the correct answer to the question "Whats wrong with Calvinists ?"

Our greatest problem is that every non-Calvinist is an expert on what we believe and prepared to explain how we misunderstand what we believe and that what we believe (as they have now correctly explained it to us) is not taught in the Bible but is a philosophy of man ... John Calvin to be exact, who didn't believe it himself which they can prove by quoting from his books (plus he murdered Servetus, so his teaching must be evil).

What's wrong is we are forced to untangle this Gordian Knot of misinformation frequently, and seldom actually get to have a conversation on what scripture actually says and what we believe about what it says.

 

[Iconoclast]

No. A famous preacher used that line. Like a dying man to dying men. Spurgeon, I think. Sort of a modest way of acknowledging the preacher’s own nature and the urgency of preaching.

peace to you

Yes, Richard Baxter understood tehat God made him alive from the dead,Eph2:1-4...and uses us as a means to bring the words of life to others who are dead.
He also understood are mortality that our time on earth is limited by physical death,so even as our outward man is perishing we present the gospel to other perishing persons.
Some go to churches where jokes and entertainment are central, so they get confused when they hear actual preaching and pleading with sinners to repent and believe

 

[Iconoclast]

Which brings us to the correct answer to the question "Whats wrong with Calvinists ?"

Our greatest problem is that every non-Calvinist is an expert on what we believe and prepared to explain how we misunderstand what we believe and that what we believe (as they have now correctly explained it to us) is not taught in the Bible but is a philosophy of man ... John Calvin to be exact, who didn't believe it himself which they can prove by quoting from his books (plus he murdered Servetus, so his teaching must be evil).

What's wrong is we are forced to untangle this Gordian Knot of misinformation frequently, and seldom actually get to have a conversation on what scripture actually says and what we believe about what it says.

Not at all. It is all about Jesus,but you do not actually hear Calvinists preach evidently as I have seen what you post

 

[atpollard]

very simple. If the Lord did with Paul in Acts chapter 9, where He directed Ananias to visit Paul, and in chapter 10, Peter is instructed to visit Cornelius, both for their salvation. Why can't this same God, Who is Almighty, do exactly the same for ALL those who are "elect", (since their number is not too great, as Jesus says, "FEW" will find the Way), for their salvation; rather than the whole world, that never can be saved? BECAUSE, He is willing that NONE of this entire human race were lost! Yet there are some like you, who so much are against the salvation of every human being, even though you pretend that you are not, yet your own theology is AGAINST this!

You never answered ... Why can't God do the same for those who will FREELY CHOOSE TO BELIEVE?
The Gospel is no less "wasted" on those that will never choose to believe as those that God has not chosen.
Your argument has NOTHING to do with ELECTION since it applies just as well to Free Will.

 

[atpollard]

Not at all. It is all about Jesus,but you do not actually hear Calvinists preach evidently as I have seen what you post

I was speaking about the topics on this site and comments like the one I was responding to.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Yes, Richard Baxter understood tehat God made him alive from the dead,Eph2:1-4...and uses us as a means to bring the words of life to others who are dead.
He also understood are mortality that our time on earth is limited by physical death,so even as our outward man is perishing we present the gospel to other perishing persons.
Some go to churches where jokes and entertainment are central, so they get confused when they hear actual preaching and pleading with sinners to repent and believe

more importantly, Baxter never believed in any "limited atonement"!

 

[SavedByGrace]

You never answered ... Why can't God do the same for those who will FREELY CHOOSE TO BELIEVE?
The Gospel is no less "wasted" on those that will never choose to believe as those that God has not chosen.
Your argument has NOTHING to do with ELECTION since it applies just as well to Free Will.

your reasoning is rather foolish. God desires that the entire human race is saved, which even Calvin taught, nothing is "wasted" as you say, because you simply don't understand salvation as taught in the Bible!

 

[Dave G]

BECAUSE, He is willing that NONE of this entire human race were lost!

Where does Scripture say that He is not willing that any of humanity be lost?
2 Peter 3:9?

Let's look at that together:

" But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." ( 2 Peter 3:8-9 )

Firstly, I see that the "us-ward" in verse 9 is describing the "beloved" in verse 8.
Secondly, I see that, with the "beloved / us-ward" in mind, the "any" and "all" in verse 9 are a repeat of passages like:

John 3:16, where whosoever believes in Him should not perish;
John 5:24, where the person that hears His word and believes on Him shall not come into condemnation;
John 6:39, where, of all that the Father has given to Christ, none shall be lost;
John 10:28-29, where none of Christ's sheep shall perish;

and several others.

To me, this passage is often quoted and taken in isolation and seems to indicate that God is not willing that any of the race of mankind should perish...
When upon closer examination and comparison, I see that it is only reinforcing the passages I've listed and is not in any way referring to each and every man, woman and child who ever lived.

I encourage you to look at it again and even to check my use of it and it's comparison with other Scriptures.
May God bless you in many ways.

 

[SavedByGrace]

I see that the "us-ward"

check the textual evidence for yourself, and you will see that it reads YOU, and not US! The oldest reading for "YOU" is the Papyri ms 72, which is from the 3rd century, and the Old Latin which is early 2nd century! The oldest Greek ms for the reading "US", is the NINTH century codex K! There you have it. The reading YOU also includes the "mockers and scoffers"! Obviously changed by someone who did not like the fact that God would "will" the salvation of ALL the world, including these "mockers and scoffers", like Reformed/Calvinists do!

 

[Van]

Now to be clear i do hold to eternal security. Not the Calvinist version of it ( based on ' election ' ) . But After we believe we are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. We cannot be unsealed .
So my post is about why there is no Joy in Calvinism . I first noticed this from listening to Paul washer . I could not understand why he had such anguish in his face and why so much railing and ranting towards his listeners on right living and the dangers of false teachings ect . But then we see this in Piper and Macarthur . A solem and anguished demeaneor. Why does Paul washer sound like his listeners can lose their salvation? or that they need to beware of false teachings ? Why do calvinists preach like an Arminian . As if there ' right living ' is necessary for keeping ones salvation and not walking away .
You could easily be mistaking with such teachers as Paul washer that they hold to loss of salvation through their heavy emphasis on works . Just like we hear from the likes of David Pawson . Infact if you put some of the content of Paul washer ( ect ) and David pawson( Arminain ) some of it would sound the same on perseverance. What gives ? If you are one of the elect ,where is the Joy ? why the Anguish? no more or no less people will be saved and can do nothing about it . Its all determined . An elect person cannot be lost . But why do you live as if you can be lost . Why are your preachers ,preaching like an arminain on works ?
Thoughts?

Not sure this is a Cal/Arm debate issue? Why admonish the flock to be diligent and add to their faith godly attributes? Salvation has three parts, (1) we are saved forever when God places us into Christ on the basis of crediting our faith as righteousness, (2) then after we are "in Christ" we are new creations created for good works. We can enter heaven "abundantly" taking our rewards for faithful service with us, or we can enter heaven as one escaping from a fire, taking little or no rewards with us. (3) refers to our bodily redemption at Christ's second coming, our future adoption as pledged by our indwelt Spirit.

I remember the opening sequence in the Movie Bridge on the River Kwai. "Be happy in your work"

 

[atpollard]

your reasoning is rather foolish. God desires that the entire human race is saved, which even Calvin taught, nothing is "wasted" as you say, because you simply don't understand salvation as taught in the Bible!

It was YOUR reasoning!
I just pointed out that it applied equally well to "Election" and "Free Will".

Are you now claiming that preaching to the non-elect and those who will not choose is not "wasted" effort?

 

[George Antonios]

Now to be clear i do hold to eternal security. Not the Calvinist version of it ( based on ' election ' ) . But After we believe we are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. We cannot be unsealed .
So my post is about why there is no Joy in Calvinism . I first noticed this from listening to Paul washer . I could not understand why he had such anguish in his face and why so much railing and ranting towards his listeners on right living and the dangers of false teachings ect . But then we see this in Piper and Macarthur . A solem and anguished demeaneor. Why does Paul washer sound like his listeners can lose their salvation? or that they need to beware of false teachings ? Why do calvinists preach like an Arminian . As if there ' right living ' is necessary for keeping ones salvation and not walking away .
You could easily be mistaking with such teachers as Paul washer that they hold to loss of salvation through their heavy emphasis on works . Just like we hear from the likes of David Pawson . Infact if you put some of the content of Paul washer ( ect ) and David pawson( Arminain ) some of it would sound the same on perseverance. What gives ? If you are one of the elect ,where is the Joy ? why the Anguish? no more or no less people will be saved and can do nothing about it . Its all determined . An elect person cannot be lost . But why do you live as if you can be lost . Why are your preachers ,preaching like an arminain on works ?
Thoughts?

It's because they never quite know if they are one of the elect or not.
So they trust their works, not for salvation, but for assurance of salvation - keeping in mind that if they ever fall back completely then that confirms (in their understanding) that they weren't one of the elect to begin with.
So in a round-about practical way, they live and hope exactly as any man working towards his salvation.
And when you're never sure if you're saved or not, it's hard to have the joy of assurance.
A Calvinist can never, according to the system, be 100% he is saved.
He can reasonably infer it from his "good works" but he can never be 100% sure of it and thus never have perfect peace and joy.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Are you now claiming that preaching to the non-elect and those who will not choose is not "wasted" effort?

indeed, HOW can the Good News about the Great slavation of the Lord Jesus Christ, whether believed or not, can be in any way "wasted"? They still hear the Great News, regardless of whether they accept it! The Gospel Message is never "wasted", what is, is the lives of those who wilfully REJECT it!