Featured Trail of Blood

One good consideration as to whether John baptized the disciples of Jesus is one of authority.

When Jesus came for baptism John at first refused. The one with greater authority baptized, and John recognized that. Jesus insisted, saying it fulfilled righteousness. The Holy Spirit descending like a dove upon Jesus demonstrated that Jesus had the greater authority, though John fulfilled his role as the forerunner.

At that point, for the disciples of Jesus to submit to the baptism of John might be interpreted as John having greater authority than Jesus.

John, himself, stated that he (his ministry) must decrease and Jesus (His ministry) must increase.

That is an admission of the greater authority of Jesus that might be obscured if His disciples submitted to John’s baptism.

peace to you

 

The only ones said to baptize before Pentecost was John the Baptist and Jesus, by way of His disciples.(John 4:1-2). There is no reason to suppose any of Jesus' followers prior to the cross were not baptised or one or the other baptisms were not "Christian" in following Jesus.

 

Someone may want to build a further case based on John’s baptism, but it is unreasonable to think the apostles were not baptized by John the Baptist. The only Jews we know of who were not were religious leaders, extreme opposites to the apostles.

The apostles were expectantly looking for the Messiah, and were open-minded enough to listen to Jesus. John was the chosen one who prepared the way, people went out to him, and he baptized them, even those who many may have disliked, for example, publicans.

John’s ministry was far too important, had far too much impact to think that Jews expectantly awaiting the Messiah would not respond to his message. The character of the apostles argues against the idea that they would not have also responded and been baptized.

 

Hey,

I'm not aware of any specific works that refute Trail of Blood. Trail of Blood isn't really that widely held (if at all) where im from. Best I can do is to recommend really church history books, Nick Needham's (a baptist minister) 2000 years of Christs power.

 

I think I understand where you are coming from, but at the same time cannot find that John was a God-sent heaven-authorized man who baptized all who heard his message and was the only such baptizer until Jesus's disciples also started baptizing.

On that latter subject, I would be curious to know, from those to whom it applies, whether the baptisms performed by the disciples of Jesus (John 3:22; John 4:1-2) before Pentecost were or were not "Christian baptism."

In this I believe you are mistaken. For example, the two largest bodies that hold Landmark ecclesiology -- the American Baptist Association and the Baptist Missionary Association of America -- are not KJVO. (However, this does not mean they may have member churches who are.) These represent probably 3000 to 4000 churches. In general they believe in the plenary verbal inspiration and inerrancy of the Bible as originally written. My take is that the leading schools and leading preachers are not pro-KJV, but due to the generally conservative nature of the people, their doctrine, and their practice, the rank-and-file often have a specific preference for the King James Bible. This is probably changing as the older generation passes.

I think you will tend to find that the more vocal KJVO Landmark Baptists are usually independent. It is hard to know just how many churches this might be.

 

This almost seems to be a case of trying to build an extra wall of defense against possible wrong implications of John's baptism.

 

Mikey, these appear to be what you are referring to, right?
2000 Years of Christ's Power, 4 Vols. (Needham)

 

Yes. I found them an accessible read.

 

Independent? independent of what?

The term independent Baptist has an established meaning: = not being affiliated with the Convention (Northern or Southern).

 

The longtime publisher of the Trail of Blood: Ashland Ave. Baptist, was commended by Albert Mohler for its strong historical emphasis:

2016 Centennial of Ashland Avenue Baptist Church

"'God has made us chronological creatures. We think necessarily in terms of past, present and future. That's why history is so important to us. That is why I am so honored to celebrate with Ashland Avenue Baptist Church, your 100th anniversary, past, present and future,' Mohler said."

"'Few churches not only have the history of your church, but few actually have the intentionality in that history as well,' he continued. 'There is a very clear identity to Ashland Avenue Baptist Church, committed from the very beginning to the faith once for all delivered to the saints.'"



FYI & FWIW:

Pastor David Prince, Ashland Avenue Baptist Church

Pastor David E. Prince "came to Ashland in November 2003....He received is M.Div from Southwestern Theological Seminary and his Ph.D from the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. In addition to his role at Ashland, he is also an Associate Professor for Christian Preaching and Pastoral Ministry at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, KY."

[Prince's predecessor at Ashland Ave. was Hershael York, who's now the Dean of SBTS's School of Theology!]

Prince is also chairman of the board of trustees of the SBC's Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission! He's been one of Russell Moore's strongest defenders:

Feb 21, 2020 • ERLC Upset It's Being Investigated

"In an open letter...ERLC trustee officers called the task force...'unwarranted, divisive, and disrespectful'. Signed by ERLC Board of Trustees chairman David Prince and the board’s other officers, the letter...included a statement of support for ERLC president Russell Moore."

 

Not really, if talking about the ABA and BMAA. The former has a seminary here in our county seat town, and the latter has a seminary in a neighboring county. 30-50 years ago they were not KJVO, and the former was pretty virulently anti-KJVO (though they kept their talking points in check outside the seminary).

I don't think there is much correlation here, even for those who make a point about the KJV not being copyrighted. In one case they are talking about the word of God, and in the other the words of men.

Yes, I understand any Baptist church is supposed to be independent. In context, I was contrasting churches in two associations I mentioned (ABA, BMAA) with churches that are not in any association. By the way, there are even Southern Baptists who are Landmarkers, and the author of The Trail of Blood was a Southern Baptist.

James Milton Carroll (January 8, 1852 – January 10, 1931) was the son of Benajah and Mary Eliza Carroll. His father was a Baptist minister, as well as his better known older brother, Benajah Harvey (B.H.) Carroll.
J. M. Carroll was a Baptist pastor, author, and educator. He was an amateur ornithologist, and reputedly owned one of the largest collections of bird eggs in the state Texas. Carroll founded the Education Commission of the Baptist General Convention of Texas. He was a founder and the first president of San Marcos Baptist Academy, and was president of both Oklahoma Baptist University and Howard Payne University. I think he worked in some way at some time for both the Texas Baptist & Herald (periodical) and Baylor University.

In addition to his well-known book The Trail of Blood, he wrote several other books, including Texas Baptist Statistics (1896), A History of Texas Baptists, B. H. Carroll, The Colossus of Baptist History, and Just Such a Time: Recollections of Childhood on the Texas Frontier, 1858-1867.

 

Most churches in the ABA and BMAA associate with their local, state, and national bodies. However, some do not always participate in all three.

Ultimately you would have to ask whoever holds the copyright. A couple of things. A general rule of thumb is that most things copyrighted before 1927 are now in the public domain. ToB was written in 1931.On the other hand, I notice two different recent printings of the book on Amazon, which makes me wonder who holds the copyright.

CreateSpace Independent Publishing Platform (February 11, 2015)
Bible Nation Society, The (July 19, 2017)