Faith

[Dave G]

Everyone has a choice what object they place their faith in .

Again, the kind of faith that we're talking about is the kind that Jesus Christ is the author and finisher ( Hebrews 12:2 ) of.
We're not talking about some sort of belief or trust, like sitting in a chair.

This is the kind of faith that accompanies one to their death, if need be.
It is a faith and trust in God, not objects or mere men.

No where in the bible does it say regeneration precedes faith

Acts of the Apostles 16:14.

No where does it say Faith is an EXCLUSIVE gift . This is read INTO the text using the obscure verses that mention ' faith ' .

Is it?
Strange...

It hasn't occurred to me that I was reading anything into the text when I read that faith is the gift in Ephesians 2:8.
Nor did it occur to me that Paul was talking about any other kind of faith that he was living his life in the flesh by, than the faith of the Son of God in Galatians 2:16-20.

The point is made that Faith is given as an Exclusive gift to some and not others . Where is this in the bible please ?

I've tried to show you, Barry, and you keep falling back on your statements.
I keep showing you the Scriptures that actually contain the answers, but it seems to be falling on "deaf" ears.

And I don't mean obscure passages that if you squint your eye just right you.ll see it kind of verses .?

You've believed on Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, correct?
Then to me, you should have the Holy Spirit in you, and there should be no "squinting" that needs to take place.

All I can say is, keep studying.
There's a lot in there that I didn't even see until recently, and I've been a believer for over 42 years.

 

[AustinC]

No God has dealt the MEASURE OF FAITH TO EVERY!! MAN ..ok now its up to EVERYMAN what object he places his faith in . The right choice is this:
5¶But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, HIS faith is counted for righteousness.

John 1:12-13.

12 "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

1 John 5:1; "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: ... ."

Clearly we can say also that ' not all men have faith in the context given in that verse . Don't we distinguish this way today ,when we say " I don't think he's a believer " , He doesn't have faith in Christ " ect .

2 Thessalonians 3 proves that not every man has faith. Therefore your assertion is false.

Barry, your selected verses condemn your assertion as false. At this point you are fighting against God, not against anyone here at the BB.

 

[Dave G]

his is the problem. You see a clear text that says ' HIS faith ' which is clear that its HIS faith. And because of your BELIEF about a person has to be gifted an exclusive gift of Faith , this trumps a clear verse that says by HIS faith ? Why are you doing that ?

Doing what?

Chaining together the Scriptural facts that tell me faith is a gift of God ( Ephesians 2:8 ), authored and finished by His Son ( Hebrews 12:2 ), is the evidence of His work in us ( Hebrews 11:1 ), belongs to us ( Romans 4:5 ), is something that we do many things by ( Hebrews 11 ), that believers live their lives in the flesh by ( Galatians 2:16-20 ) and is something that all men do not have ( 2 Thessalonians 3:2 )?

Because that is where I see the Scriptures giving me the answers, Barry.

Honestly I have to ask...
Why don't you make the connections?

Do you think it's strange to attribute everything good to God ( James 1:17 ), and that man has absolutely nothing to stand on except that which the Lord Himself, in His mercy and grace ( Titus 3:4-7 ) gives to someone...like the fact that they have even believed on Christ ( Philippians 1:29 )?
I don't.

For example, I take this literally:
" John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven." ( John 3:27 ). <-----That statement doesn't jump off the page at you?

How about this one?
" Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." ( John 6:29 ).

This one?
" He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God." ( John 8:47 ).

I confess to being puzzled by your inability to see that true faith is something that not all men have.
The reason is, I didn't need a theology book to tell me any of this..
I simply picked up the Bible, did as the Lord commanded me to in 1 Peter 2:2 and 2 Timothy 2:15, and what you're seeing in my comments is what came out of all that.

Just because we use our will as fallen men to trust in something or someone, does not make that Biblical faith.
So how is it surprising to you that this Biblical faith ( not the kind of "faith" that all men have, is transitory, or gives up and walks away under fire or opposition ), the kind that endures all its trials and tribulations in this life...Persecution, loneliness, adversity, prison, torture, and even death...

Must be the kind of faith that only comes from God?

 

[Barry Johnson]

I agree.

Nowhere does it say, in one "proof text" that God gifts an exclusive special gift of faith to anyone.
But it does say many things that, if one is paying attention, should cause them to sit up and take notice:

1) That it is given to some to know the mysteries of the kingdom of Heaven, but to others it is not given ( Matthew 13:10-11 ).
2) That a person can only come to Christ if it is given to them to do so by the Father ( John 6:64-65 ).
3) That only those that are foreknown will actually have the benefits of any of the rest that is contained in Romans 8:29-30.
4) That the believer is chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world.
4) That a person does not believe because they are not "of" Christ's sheep ( John 10:26 ).
5) That faith is a gift ( Ephesians 2:8 ).
6) That believers are God's workmanship ( Ephesians 2:10 ).
7) That believers are made accepted in the beloved ( Ephesians 1:6 ).
8) that the preaching of the cross is foolishness to those that perish ( 1 Corinthians 1:18 ).
9) That no man knows the Father but the Son, and vice-versa, and those to whom the Son with reveal the Father to ( Matthew 11:27 ).
10) That Jesus often addresses those that have "ears to hear" ( Matthew 15:11 ).
11) That only someone that is "of God" hears God's words ( John 8:43-47.

I see the context for the "every man" there,
as being the "every man that is among you" from the earlier section of the verse.

Don't you?

Its because your going from the obscure to interpret the clear . There are clear passages on Salvation that shouldn't really be confused ..Romans 5 is a perfect example. These are clear texts in a book precisely on salvation.
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5¶But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, HIS faith is counted for righteousness.
There is no need to change what these verses say .
Faith a work ? let's see a clear text .
27¶Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Again, the kind of faith that we're talking about is the kind that Jesus Christ is the author and finisher ( Hebrews 12:2 ) of.
We're not talking about some sort of belief or trust, like sitting in a chair.

This is the kind of faith that accompanies one to their death, if need be.
It is a faith and trust in God, not objects or mere men.

Acts of the Apostles 16:14.

Is it?
Strange...

It hasn't occurred to me that I was reading anything into the text when I read that faith is the gift in Ephesians 2:8.
Nor did it occur to me that Paul was talking about any other kind of faith that he was living his life in the flesh by, than the faith of the Son of God in Galatians 2:16-20.

I've tried to show you, Barry, and you keep falling back on your statements.
I keep showing you the Scriptures that actually contain the answers, but it seems to be falling on "deaf" ears.

You've believed on Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, correct?
Then to me, you should have the Holy Spirit in you, and there should be no "squinting" that needs to take place.

All I can say is, keep studying.
There's a lot in there that I didn't even see until recently, and I've been a believer for over 42 years.

Hebrews 12 .2 another verse taken out of context . Its not about an individual. its about Jesus being the author of salvation in the context of from the old covenant to the new .

 

[percho]

Consider:

Before the foundation of the world it was foreordained for Christ to shed his precious blood (DIE) for the purpose of redemption. 1 Peter 1:18-20

Because of that foreordination of Death before the foundation of the world, God, who cannot lie, at that same time, before times ages promised HOPE of eternal life. Titus 1:2 This hope has to be made fore one who is sinless yet dies anyway. Gives his life. Becomes dead. Why, because the soul that sins will die. Death is the wages of sin. Death is what sin merits. Therefore that promise of HOPE must be for one who is sinless and if he learns and becomes obedient unto giving his life, then by grace God can give him the promised hope, eternal life. The scripture speaking of Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ, the Son of the living God:
Romans 6:9 knowing that Christ, having been raised up out of the dead, doth no more die, death over him hath no more lordship;
Acts 13:34 'And that He did raise him up out of the dead, no more to return to corruption, he hath said thus -- I will give to you the faithful kindnesses of David;

Faith belongs to God the Father and the Son of God born of woman. From faith to faith speaks of God the Father and the Son of God born of woman. IMHO

Now before the foundation of the world Christ was coming to (DIE) because the very first man along with his wife were going to sin. They were created in a manner that they could sin and bring death. Why? Because there is spiritual warfare going on and God is going to battle.

Why does one believe God. Why did Abraham believe God? Did God line up everyone on earth to fine one that of himself would believe God? No. God needed one who Christ could be the seed of to receive the promise. He choose Abraham to be the believer unto Christ, the one of the faith of God.

for what doth the writing say? 'And Abraham did believe God, and it was reckoned to him -- to righteousness;' Romans 4:3
but ye do not believe, for ye are not of my sheep, according as I said to you: My sheep my voice do hear, and I know them, and they follow me, John 10:26,27

God knew Abraham, God called Abraham, Abraham heard God and followed God because, Christ was going to be the seed of Abraham, In thy seed all the nations of the earth will be blessed.

That is why Abraham believed. It is why Paul believed. Called according to purpose. The purpose of God.

It is why you believe. God calls. God gives the Holy Spirit. You become, of the faith of Christ.

There is still spiritual warfare going on and will until in a moment in the twinkling of an eye at the last trump.

 

[Dave G]

Its because your going from the obscure to interpret the clear .

If I may ask, how long have you been a believer, Barry?

There are clear passages on Salvation that shouldn't really be confused ..Romans 5 is a perfect example

"Clear", "obscure"...it's all God's word, Barry.

Are you telling me that a person has to rely on some sort of "interpretation" or "hermeneutic" in order to properly understand something that is meant for the believers eyes and ear.
God's word tells me that all I have to do to rightly divide it, is to study it.

 

[Dave G]

Hebrews 12 .2 another verse taken out of context . Its not about an individual. its about Jesus being the author of salvation in the context of from the old covenant to the new .

You don't see the truth of the words on the page, that Jesus is the author and finisher of faith?

 

[Barry Johnson]

Doing what?

Chaining together the Scriptural facts that tell me faith is a gift of God ( Ephesians 2:8 ), authored and finished by His Son ( Hebrews 12:2 ), is the evidence of His work in us ( Hebrews 11:1 ), belongs to us ( Romans 4:5 ), is something that we do many things by ( Hebrews 11 ), that believers live their lives in the flesh by ( Galatians 2:16-20 ) and is something that all men do not have ( 2 Thessalonians 3:2 )?

Because that is where I see the Scriptures giving me the answers, Barry.

Honestly I have to ask...
Why don't you make the connections?

Do you think it's strange to attribute everything good to God ( James 1:17 ), and that man has absolutely nothing to stand on except that which the Lord gives ( Titus 3:4-7 ) to someone?
I don't.
For example, I take this literally:
" John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven." ( John 3:27 ). <-----That statement doesn't jump off the page at you?

How about this one?
" Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." ( John 6:29 ).

This one?
" He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God." ( John 8:47 ).

I confess to being puzzled by your inability to see that faith is something that all men have.
Just because we use our will as fallen men to trust in something or someone, does not make that Biblical faith.

So how is it surprising to you that Biblical faith ( not the kind of "faith" that is transitory, or gives up and walks away under fire ),
the kind that endures all its trials and tribulations in this life...Persecution, loneliness, adversity, prison, torture, and even death...

Must be the kind of faith that only comes from God?

Each book has a context..The Author has a point he is making ,a central point of the book . Quoting a verse from each book and saying ' making connections 'is not a good bible study .

 

[Dave G]

Each book has a context..The Author has a point he is making ,a central point of the book . Quoting a verse from each book and saying ' making connections 'is not a good bible study .

Says who?

 

[Barry Johnson]

If I may ask, how long have you been a believer, Barry?

"Clear", "obscure"...it's all God's word, Barry.

Are you telling me that a person has to rely on some sort of "interpretation" or "hermeneutic" in order to properly understand something that is meant for the believers eyes and ears?

I meant there are some verses that are directly in context about a certain point the Author is explaining. Another verse is not directly about a sequence of events for example. It might be indirect ect .

 

[Dave G]

I meant there are some verses that are directly in context about a certain point the Author is explaining. Another verse is not directly about a sequence of events for example. It might be indirect ect .

I agree.

 

[Dave G]

If I may ask, how long have you been a believer, Barry?

I'd be interested in seeing your testimony in the praise and worship section, if you're willing.

I'd like to know when it was, and what the circumstances were when you realized that you were a sinner without hope in the world and in the next life, apart from Jesus Christ...
When you first heard the word of God, it got a hold of you in a way that made you sit up and swallow hard, and believe on Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.

I'd like to read the details, and to praise the Lord for His grace to you.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Says who?

Well surely we want to understand what the Authors intent was and what we can understand from the book / letter / epistles? Isn't this basic bible study ? The who ,what when ,why questions?

 

[Dave G]

Well surely we want to understand what the Authors intent was and what we can understand from the book / letter / epistles? Isn't this basic bible study ?

Barry, to me this is basic Bible study:

"Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
2 as newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
3 if so be ye have tasted that the Lord [is] gracious." ( 1 Peter 2:1-3 ).

Do you think that we as believers need anything else?

 

[Barry Johnson]

I'd be interested in seeing your testimony in the praise and worship section, if you're willing.

I'd like to know when it was, and what the circumstances were when you realized that you were a sinner without hope in the world and in the next life, apart from Jesus Christ...
When you first heard the word of God, it got a hold of you in a way that made you sit up and swallow hard, and believe on Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.

I'd like to read the details, and to praise the Lord for His grace to you.

I can tell you that as I started to be influenced by Calvinism I actually began to modify my testimony to kinda suit what I thought ' must ' have really happened in light of my new ' information ' . Thats the dangers of the wrong doctrines.

 

[Dave G]

I can tell you that as I started to be influenced by Calvinism I actually began to modify my testimony to kinda suit what I thought ' must ' have really happened in light of my new ' information ' . Thats the dangers of the wrong doctrines.

Barry, I'm not asking about any of that.

What I want to know is, when did the Lord conk you over the head with your guilt ( or even shock ) at being a sinner in need of a Saviour?
For me, it was during the preaching of His word in 1978.
I'm curious as to when that happened for you, and what the circumstances were.

If you like, start a thread in "Praise and Worship" and I'll be glad to read it.

 

[37818]

That would be a "fail".
You did not prove it from 2 Cor 4 ... which was the point I was making: 2 Cor 4 doesn't say a LOT of things, but that isn't proof that they are true or false. It is just proof that 2 Cor 4 does not talk about them.

Babies have no such beliefs or nonbeliefs as such. I suppose you think because they are not old enough to choose to believe either way you count that as unbelief.

 

[atpollard]

Babies have no such beliefs or nonbeliefs as such. I suppose you think because they are not old enough to choose to believe either way you count that as unbelief.

I don’t count it as anything. I am a CREDO (“I believe”) BAPTIST, so I am willing to baptize anyone that claims to believe (Romans 10:9-10). So if a 4 month old made a profession of faith, I would be first in line advocating that they should be baptized into the Church.

 

[Salty]

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