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The eternal subordination of the Word.

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by 37818, Oct 30, 2020.

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  1. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Now what is not at issue and not being denied, is that the Word was God. Which is to be understood to mean that the Word to be God is eternally the uncreated God, never subotdinate in being God.

    Now the Wprd's eternal subordination is in the fact the word is eternally "with the God," John 1:1-2. And this is said of the Word twice. [Now this Greek phrase, προς τον θεον, is used some 19 times in the New Testament of someone other than God. Twice the Word being said to be also someone other than God.]

    2 John 1:9.
     
    #1 37818, Oct 30, 2020
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  2. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Not only that, but the term "Word" (Logos) demonstrates this role. What the Word set aside was not Himself but the glory He shared with the Father (He became flesh).
     
    #2 JonC, Oct 30, 2020
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  3. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    "The eternal subordination of the Word" = unbiblical heresy!
     
    #3 SavedByGrace, Oct 30, 2020
  4. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Well, not exactly. He as God never ceased being the glory of God, John 1:9, Hebrews 1:3, John 3:13 KJV. He changed how He was with God being a man on Earth.
     
    #4 37818, Oct 30, 2020
  5. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    So are you denying the Word was always "with God?"
     
    #5 37818, Oct 30, 2020
  6. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    Really?... And then there is this!... Brother Glen:)

    1 Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

    15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

    15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

    15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

    15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
     
    #6 tyndale1946, Oct 30, 2020
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  7. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    exactly WHAT has this to do with any "subordination"?
     
    #7 SavedByGrace, Oct 30, 2020
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  8. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    this is about Jesus earthly Ministry and has nothing to do with His eternal Kingdom.

    Revelation 11:15 is very clear about Jesus' Kingdom and Rule:

    "The kingdoms of the world have become our Lord's and his Christ’s and He shall Reign for ever and ever."

    The Greek is very important here, the Greek verb, βασιλευσει, is in the singular number, which can either mean, Jesus shall Reign for ever and ever"; or, "Our Lord", which is "The Father", Reigns jointly with Jesus Christ. In any case, Jesus' Kingdom and Reign is Eternal, and co-equal with the Father!
     
    #8 SavedByGrace, Oct 30, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2020
  9. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I disagree on that point (I read John 17:1-5 to indicate Christ having set aside a previous glory in becoming flesh to be restored again to that glory).
     
    #9 JonC, Oct 30, 2020
  10. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    indeed! as it does in Luke 24:26, "Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?”
     
    #10 SavedByGrace, Oct 30, 2020
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  11. JamesL

    JamesL Well-Known Member
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    Do you equate "becoming flesh" with "being made a little lower than the angels" ?

    Hebrews 2:9
    But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone

    I see Him setting aside His glory to become a Suffering Servant. He became flesh to do that, but I don't think becoming flesh was the height of Him setting aside His glory
     
    #11 JamesL, Oct 30, 2020
  12. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    Philippians 2:5-7 says exactly this
     
    #12 SavedByGrace, Oct 30, 2020
  13. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    further to what I have said in #8, I would like to add, that in Revelation 22:1 and 3, we read:

    "proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb", and "and the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be therein"

    In both verses the word "throne", is the Greek, in the singular number, showing that BOTH God and The Lamb are JOINTLY Reigning. Also, in both verses, we have , "του θεου και του αρνιου", literally, "The God and The Lamb", which shows that Two distinct Persons are meant, yet Their "Rule and Kingdom" are JOINTLY one and the same. This proves beyond any doubt, that Jesus Christ is NOT "subject" to The Father, as some wrongly suppose, from texts like 1 Corinthians 15:28, as Both The Father and The Son, are EQUAL RULERS.
     
    #13 SavedByGrace, Oct 30, 2020
  14. JamesL

    JamesL Well-Known Member
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    Says exactly what?
     
    #14 JamesL, Oct 30, 2020
  15. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I do.
     
    #15 JonC, Oct 30, 2020
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  16. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Being "with the God" is being someone other than God. In John 1:1-2 the Word was both "with the God" and "was God." How He is not God is subordination.
     
    #16 37818, Oct 30, 2020
  17. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    But the Lamb is not God in the Revelation. Our Lord Jesus Christ is both being the Word.
     
    #17 37818, Oct 30, 2020
  18. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Jesus Christ never ceased being the true light, John 1:9, Hebrews 1:3, nor being God the uncaused Cause, Jobn 1:3, even on the cross, Hebrews 1:3.
     
    #18 37818, Oct 30, 2020
  19. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    what are you on about?
     
    #19 SavedByGrace, Oct 31, 2020
  20. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    That Jesus, while on earth in as the God-Man, laid aside His Glory and Equality with the Father, for this time.
     
    #20 SavedByGrace, Oct 31, 2020
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