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Featured The dreaded doctrine of election and perseverance.

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Barry Johnson, Nov 9, 2020.

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  1. Parashah

    Parashah Member

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    Hard to believe it was 32 yrs ago.
     
    #41 Parashah, Nov 10, 2020
  2. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    I would say those terms need to be defined. The problem with trying to have a discussion like this is that they do not get defined the same way.
     
    #42 Revmitchell, Nov 10, 2020
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  3. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    The problem I see with @Barry is that he views Election and subsequent perseverance in faith as..."a brand" that humans have marketed rather than a truth expressed by God in scripture.

    @Dave G has provided many posts sharing the explicit teaching of God in scripture, alone, yet Barry has rejected these truths as "a brand."

    At some point a person must walk away from Barry and ignore his ranting as being that of a man who refuses truth in exchange for his own bias. Therefore, I have Barry on ignore. I see his comments only because others quote him. Rather than try to convince someone who is unwilling to be honest in pursuing God alone, I choose the ignore button. I say this especially to new posters who might be dragged in to an empty dialogue in vain. Save your energy to dialogue with those willing to honestly approach God's word with reverence and a desire to walk in step with the Spirit of God.

    Peace
     
    #43 AustinC, Nov 10, 2020
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  4. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    My question is...

    Within the body of Christ, what is the role of teachers?
    What does Scripture actually declare that those roles are?

    I already know what we as believers have come to commonly accept that their roles are...
    But I'm more interested in what God says as the reason He put teachers there.

    My first reaction is to go to Ephesians 4.
     
    #44 Dave G, Nov 10, 2020
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  5. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Of course I expect objections from Calvinists.
     
    #45 Barry Johnson, Nov 10, 2020
  6. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    The Original post on each thread,post number 1
     
    #46 Iconoclast, Nov 10, 2020
  7. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Then why do you attempt to defame him? or shame him. Do you believe your defaming him will make him accept your non truthful bable You're acting like a gossip a back biter.
    MB
     
    #47 MB, Nov 10, 2020
  8. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    These doctrines are great assurance to those who are of the redeemed of the Lord!
     
    #48 Yeshua1, Nov 10, 2020
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  9. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    I share my opinion so that new person's will be aware of the folly of interaction with one who will not listen.
    This is not gossip. I have tagged @Barry so he knows exactly what I have said and so he knows exactly why I have him on ignore.

    When people in the camp of Israel were rebellious against God's commands, they were called out to repent. I call out Barry and all of us to receive God's word with fear and trembling and to accept God's word without question.

    God tells us of his election of the saints and of our call to perseverance. This has been shown over and over again in multiple threads. Denying this truth or attempting to twist this truth is anathema and an abomination against God. My call is to all of us, who refuse to abide under God's command, to repent.
     
    #49 AustinC, Nov 10, 2020
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  10. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    How is it assurance when its just stating after the effect ? Already saved people being told they were hand picked to be saved. There saved already.
    Ok the real issue is how do you know your one of the ' elect ' , apart from your perseverance? And as perseverance has to be life long . Where is the assurance?
     
    #50 Barry Johnson, Nov 10, 2020
  11. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Great virtue signalling there from Austin . Thanks .
     
    #51 Barry Johnson, Nov 10, 2020
  12. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Election and the assurance of perseverance.

    John 10:27-29
    My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me,is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
     
    #52 AustinC, Nov 10, 2020
  13. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    assurance comes from knowing you will be glorified apart from your endurance and perseverance. I wasn't predestined to be converted . Thats little comfort to the already converted . I'm predestined to glorification, sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. Rom 8.23 .
    Your predestination has passed . you have no Guranteed glorification. Your going to go verses that say all those that are given to the Father will be raised up . But you don't know Jesus even died for you as you don't believe he died for all .
     
    #53 Barry Johnson, Nov 10, 2020
  14. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Back to the old testament again to a verse that cannot include you . Remember Jesus ministry was to the lost sheep of the House of Israel. So however they were drawn and who ever believed when drawn they were the diciples. They were the Jews. Sheep are Jews . Gentiles are Dogs . Jews are lost. Gentiles were without hope and strangers. I'm always amazed when folks go the old testament of John 6 and ignore John 10.32 new testament. We Gentiles do not come into the picture until Acts 11 .
     
    #54 Barry Johnson, Nov 10, 2020
  15. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    it's called gossip
    MB
     
    #55 MB, Nov 10, 2020
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  16. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    No, it isn't. It's called discernment and calling on a brother to repent.

    You are upset because you too cannot comprehend the elective work of God and his enabling of perseverance to the elect.

    These truths are shared with you. Accept or reject them, but don't tell me I have gossipped when I openly call the person out before the brethren.
     
    #56 AustinC, Nov 10, 2020
  17. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Don't disparage.

    Look at it this way, many people (even Calvinists) were saved under a free-will understanding. So that understanding helped them. Later many became Calvinists (some were saved as Calvinists). But just like those who were saved under a non-Calvinistic doctrine by necessity of understanding some Calvinists depend on Calvinism to understand the gospel (they cannot understand the gospel except through Calvinism).

    Calvinism is, to them, the gospel message. Reformed theology is probably the simplest of all theologies. It is basic. Even a caveman can understand it :) . So it takes away a lot of more complex ideas other understandings incorporate. Why was I saved? Cause God chose me. Why did God choose me? Don't know, but it had nothing to do with me. How was I saved? God punished Jesus in my place paying the penalty for my sins. What about those who were not saved? Jesus could not have died for them otherwise they would be saved.

    I would caution you about disparaging other people's understanding because people understand things differently. What if the only way someone could understand the gospel was through a Calvinistic lens? They hold a very simple theology, but faith is still in Christ.

    It does not matter if Calvinism is not "deep" as long as it can be a vehicle to communicate the gospel to people. Jesus can make them stand just as He can make you and I stand.
     
    #57 JonC, Nov 10, 2020
  18. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Well I was going to say it is hypocrisy until you called it with your own words. Who appointed you as Judge of all?. You judge us by your doctrines not by scripture. The pharisee's did the same as you.
    MB
     
    #58 MB, Nov 10, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2020
  19. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    I appreciate those wise words and your delivery, its able to be recieved . Your absolutely right on many points there . The issues we face due to false teaching impact people differently . Maybe you've not been personally affected by Calvinsm or been through a church split or had to leave a church because of these doctrines. Through Lordship salvation I've seen many brothers suffer under this doctrine. What we have here is not just a simple way of assimilating truths or just another acceptable alternative. We looking at 5 major Doctrines of a system that is one of the most dominant worldviews within christianity currently. As in media exposure and influence. Especially to the young. As 5 major false Doctrines which have permeated there way into the majority of traditions and denomination s . This is quite remarkable. And Christians don't speak out . We don't want to offend or rock the boat . So the issues remain. Its another Gospel. Do we really just roll over and see it just as another perspective? Another way of looking at the same picture? By every definition it is a false Gospel. " man cannot believe the Gospel unless he's regenerated first " ? Thats the absolute opposite of the Gospel.
     
    #59 Barry Johnson, Nov 10, 2020
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  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    We are the Gentile sheep of His flock, as we who had no hope are now part of His own!
     
    #60 Yeshua1, Nov 10, 2020
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