The dreaded doctrine of election and perseverance.

[AustinC]

One thing for certain my teacher will never be like you.I have a pastor, I have a teacher and I have the Holy Spirits who encourages me and corrects me when I'm wrong. I'm sure I do not need anyone with such grudge against as you have against me. Get this straight you are not a teacher you believe in your own ideas not the truth of scripture. You can't teach me anything because what you are
MB

I believe you when you say "You can't teach me anything."

 

[Barry Johnson]

The emphasis on we can do NOTHING to save ourselves is though!

We can only believe on the one who can save us .
1cor 1. 21For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe

 

[Dave G]

We can only believe on the one who can save us .

Amen.
"...Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved..."

But the question is already answered by Scripture...
Why do some believe and some do not?

" But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." ( John 6:64-65 ).

So...
No one can believe ( come to Him ) except it were given to that person to do so, by God the Father.
Unless that happens, we can only continue on in unbelief.


" For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where [is] the wise? where is the scribe? where [is] the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 but we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 but unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. " ( 1 Corinthians 1:18-24 ).

Do you see it, Barry?


v.18, us which ARE saved...not "will be".
v. 24, them which ARE called ( and "will be" )...see Romans 8:28-30, Romans 9:22-24.

v. 21, them that believe = v.18, us which are saved = v.24, them which are called.

On the one hand I would encourage anyone who truly seeks to be forgiven of their sins, to believe on Christ for that forgiveness...
On the other hand I would tell them, once they have believed, what Scripture says as to why they did.

Just as Paul told the Romans, the Ephesians, the Corinthians and the Thessalonians, among others.
What would you tell them?
That their belief was what God honored, and that He saved them because of it?
Not even Paul did that, my friend.

In fact, he specifically told them that it was given to them in the behalf of Christ to believe ( Philippians 1:29 ).

Once again, God's word strips us of having played any part in actually gaining His favor.
Personally, I cannot imagine why you would call that a dreadful thing.

It gives Him all the credit, making it impossible for anyone to boast in anything but His mercy and grace.



May God bless you, sir, in many ways.

 

[Iconoclast]

As Spurgeon rightly stated, Calvinism is the Gospel, as in the best way to explain what God meant in the scriptures concerning salvation!

JC. Ryle offered this in his writing the Old Paths;

In handling the subject of Election, there are only two things which I propose to do.
Firstly, I will state the doctrine of Election, and show what it is.

Secondly, I will fence the subject with cautions, and guard it against abuse.

If I can make these two points clear and plain to the mind of all who read these pages, I think I shall have done their souls a great and essential service. I.

I have firstly to state the doctrine of Election. What is it? What does it mean?

Accurate statements on this point are of great importance.

No doctrine of Scripture perhaps has suffered so much damage from the erroneous conceptions of foes, and the incorrect descriptions of friends, as that which is now before us.

The true doctrine of Election I believe to be as follows.

God has been pleased from all eternity to choose certain men and women out of mankind, whom by His counsel secret to us, He has decreed to save by Jesus Christ. None are finally saved except those who are thus chosen.

Hence the Scripture gives to God's people in several places the names of "God's Elect," and the choice or appointment of them to eternal life is called "God's election." Those men and women whom God has been pleased to choose from all eternity, He calls in time, by His Spirit working in due season. He convinces them of sin. He leads them to Christ. He works in them repentance and faith. He converts, renews, and sanctifies them. He keeps them by His grace from falling away entirely, and finally brings them safe to glory.


In short God's eternal Election is the first link in that chain of a sinner's salvation of which heavenly glory is the end.

None ever repent, believe, and are born again, except the Elect.

The primary and original cause of salvation, is God's eternal election. The doctrine here stated, no doubt, is peculiarly deep, mysterious, and hard to understand. We have no eyes to see it fully. We have no line to fathom it thoroughly. No part of the Christian religion has been so much disputed, rejected, and reviled as this. None has called forth so much of that enmity against God, which is the grand mark of the carnal mind. Thousands of so-called Christians profess to believe the Atonement, salvation by grace, and justification by faith, and yet refuse to look at the doctrine of Election.

The very mention of the word to some people is enough to call forth expressions of anger, ill-temper, and passion.

But, after all, is the doctrine of Election plainly stated in Scripture? This is the whole question which an honest Christian has to do with. If it is not in the Book of God, let it be forever discarded, refused, and rejected by man, no matter who propounds it.

If it is there, let us receive it with reverence, as a part of Divine revelation, and humbly believe, even where we are not able to understand completely or explain fully.


What then is written in the Scriptures? "To the law and to the testimony—if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." (Isaiah. 8:20.)

Is Election in the Bible, or is it not? Does the Bible speak of certain people as God's Elect, or not? Hear what our Lord Jesus Christ says,

"For the Elect's sake the days shall be shortened." (Matt. 24:22.)

"If it were possible they should deceive even the Elect." (Mark 13:22.)

"He shall send His angels, and they shall gather together His Elect." (Matt. 24:31.)

"Shall not God avenge His own Elect?" (Luke 18:7.)

Hear what Paul says. "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." (Romans 8:29- 30) "Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's Elect?" (Rom. 8:33.)


"God has chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world." (Ephes. 1:4.)

"Who has saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works—but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began." (2 Tim. 1:9.)

"God has from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth." (2 Thess. 2:13.)

Hear what Peter says, "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ." (1 Peter 1:2.)

"Give diligence to make your calling and Election sure." (2 Peter 1:10.) I place these eleven texts before my readers, and I ask them to consider them well. If words have any meaning at all, they appear to me to teach most plainly the doctrine of personal Election. In the face of such texts I dare not refuse to believe that it is a Scriptural doctrine. I dare not, as an honest man, shut my eyes against the plain, obvious sense of Bible language. If I once began to do so, I should have no ground to stand on in pressing the Gospel on an unconverted man. I could not expect him to believe one set of texts to be true, if I did not believe another set.

The eleven texts above quoted seem to my mind to prove conclusively that personal Election is a doctrine of Scripture. As such I must receive it, and I must believe it, however difficult it may be. As such I ask my readers this day to look at it calmly, weigh it seriously, and receive it as God's truth.

 

[Barry Johnson]

JC. Ryle offered this in his writing the Old Paths;

In handling the subject of Election, there are only two things which I propose to do.
Firstly, I will state the doctrine of Election, and show what it is.

Secondly, I will fence the subject with cautions, and guard it against abuse.

If I can make these two points clear and plain to the mind of all who read these pages, I think I shall have done their souls a great and essential service. I.

I have firstly to state the doctrine of Election. What is it? What does it mean?

Accurate statements on this point are of great importance.

No doctrine of Scripture perhaps has suffered so much damage from the erroneous conceptions of foes, and the incorrect descriptions of friends, as that which is now before us.

The true doctrine of Election I believe to be as follows.

God has been pleased from all eternity to choose certain men and women out of mankind, whom by His counsel secret to us, He has decreed to save by Jesus Christ. None are finally saved except those who are thus chosen.

Hence the Scripture gives to God's people in several places the names of "God's Elect," and the choice or appointment of them to eternal life is called "God's election." Those men and women whom God has been pleased to choose from all eternity, He calls in time, by His Spirit working in due season. He convinces them of sin. He leads them to Christ. He works in them repentance and faith. He converts, renews, and sanctifies them. He keeps them by His grace from falling away entirely, and finally brings them safe to glory.


In short God's eternal Election is the first link in that chain of a sinner's salvation of which heavenly glory is the end.

None ever repent, believe, and are born again, except the Elect.

The primary and original cause of salvation, is God's eternal election. The doctrine here stated, no doubt, is peculiarly deep, mysterious, and hard to understand. We have no eyes to see it fully. We have no line to fathom it thoroughly. No part of the Christian religion has been so much disputed, rejected, and reviled as this. None has called forth so much of that enmity against God, which is the grand mark of the carnal mind. Thousands of so-called Christians profess to believe the Atonement, salvation by grace, and justification by faith, and yet refuse to look at the doctrine of Election.

The very mention of the word to some people is enough to call forth expressions of anger, ill-temper, and passion.

But, after all, is the doctrine of Election plainly stated in Scripture? This is the whole question which an honest Christian has to do with. If it is not in the Book of God, let it be forever discarded, refused, and rejected by man, no matter who propounds it.

If it is there, let us receive it with reverence, as a part of Divine revelation, and humbly believe, even where we are not able to understand completely or explain fully.


What then is written in the Scriptures? "To the law and to the testimony—if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." (Isaiah. 8:20.)

Is Election in the Bible, or is it not? Does the Bible speak of certain people as God's Elect, or not? Hear what our Lord Jesus Christ says,

"For the Elect's sake the days shall be shortened." (Matt. 24:22.)

"If it were possible they should deceive even the Elect." (Mark 13:22.)

"He shall send His angels, and they shall gather together His Elect." (Matt. 24:31.)

"Shall not God avenge His own Elect?" (Luke 18:7.)

Hear what Paul says. "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." (Romans 8:29- 30) "Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's Elect?" (Rom. 8:33.)


"God has chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world." (Ephes. 1:4.)

"Who has saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works—but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began." (2 Tim. 1:9.)

"God has from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth." (2 Thess. 2:13.)

Hear what Peter says, "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ." (1 Peter 1:2.)

"Give diligence to make your calling and Election sure." (2 Peter 1:10.) I place these eleven texts before my readers, and I ask them to consider them well. If words have any meaning at all, they appear to me to teach most plainly the doctrine of personal Election. In the face of such texts I dare not refuse to believe that it is a Scriptural doctrine. I dare not, as an honest man, shut my eyes against the plain, obvious sense of Bible language. If I once began to do so, I should have no ground to stand on in pressing the Gospel on an unconverted man. I could not expect him to believe one set of texts to be true, if I did not believe another set.

The eleven texts above quoted seem to my mind to prove conclusively that personal Election is a doctrine of Scripture. As such I must receive it, and I must believe it, however difficult it may be. As such I ask my readers this day to look at it calmly, weigh it seriously, and receive it as God's truth.

I'm reading . Elect = Jews . Elect = purpose and service . Elect are usually saved .

 

[Barry Johnson]

JC. Ryle offered this in his writing the Old Paths;

In handling the subject of Election, there are only two things which I propose to do.
Firstly, I will state the doctrine of Election, and show what it is.

Secondly, I will fence the subject with cautions, and guard it against abuse.

If I can make these two points clear and plain to the mind of all who read these pages, I think I shall have done their souls a great and essential service. I.

I have firstly to state the doctrine of Election. What is it? What does it mean?

Accurate statements on this point are of great importance.

No doctrine of Scripture perhaps has suffered so much damage from the erroneous conceptions of foes, and the incorrect descriptions of friends, as that which is now before us.

The true doctrine of Election I believe to be as follows.

God has been pleased from all eternity to choose certain men and women out of mankind, whom by His counsel secret to us, He has decreed to save by Jesus Christ. None are finally saved except those who are thus chosen.

Hence the Scripture gives to God's people in several places the names of "God's Elect," and the choice or appointment of them to eternal life is called "God's election." Those men and women whom God has been pleased to choose from all eternity, He calls in time, by His Spirit working in due season. He convinces them of sin. He leads them to Christ. He works in them repentance and faith. He converts, renews, and sanctifies them. He keeps them by His grace from falling away entirely, and finally brings them safe to glory.


In short God's eternal Election is the first link in that chain of a sinner's salvation of which heavenly glory is the end.

None ever repent, believe, and are born again, except the Elect.

The primary and original cause of salvation, is God's eternal election. The doctrine here stated, no doubt, is peculiarly deep, mysterious, and hard to understand. We have no eyes to see it fully. We have no line to fathom it thoroughly. No part of the Christian religion has been so much disputed, rejected, and reviled as this. None has called forth so much of that enmity against God, which is the grand mark of the carnal mind. Thousands of so-called Christians profess to believe the Atonement, salvation by grace, and justification by faith, and yet refuse to look at the doctrine of Election.

The very mention of the word to some people is enough to call forth expressions of anger, ill-temper, and passion.

But, after all, is the doctrine of Election plainly stated in Scripture? This is the whole question which an honest Christian has to do with. If it is not in the Book of God, let it be forever discarded, refused, and rejected by man, no matter who propounds it.

If it is there, let us receive it with reverence, as a part of Divine revelation, and humbly believe, even where we are not able to understand completely or explain fully.


What then is written in the Scriptures? "To the law and to the testimony—if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." (Isaiah. 8:20.)

Is Election in the Bible, or is it not? Does the Bible speak of certain people as God's Elect, or not? Hear what our Lord Jesus Christ says,

"For the Elect's sake the days shall be shortened." (Matt. 24:22.)

"If it were possible they should deceive even the Elect." (Mark 13:22.)

"He shall send His angels, and they shall gather together His Elect." (Matt. 24:31.)

"Shall not God avenge His own Elect?" (Luke 18:7.)

Hear what Paul says. "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." (Romans 8:29- 30) "Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's Elect?" (Rom. 8:33.)


"God has chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world." (Ephes. 1:4.)

"Who has saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works—but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began." (2 Tim. 1:9.)

"God has from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth." (2 Thess. 2:13.)

Hear what Peter says, "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ." (1 Peter 1:2.)

"Give diligence to make your calling and Election sure." (2 Peter 1:10.) I place these eleven texts before my readers, and I ask them to consider them well. If words have any meaning at all, they appear to me to teach most plainly the doctrine of personal Election. In the face of such texts I dare not refuse to believe that it is a Scriptural doctrine. I dare not, as an honest man, shut my eyes against the plain, obvious sense of Bible language. If I once began to do so, I should have no ground to stand on in pressing the Gospel on an unconverted man. I could not expect him to believe one set of texts to be true, if I did not believe another set.

The eleven texts above quoted seem to my mind to prove conclusively that personal Election is a doctrine of Scripture. As such I must receive it, and I must believe it, however difficult it may be. As such I ask my readers this day to look at it calmly, weigh it seriously, and receive it as God's truth.

This is the presupposition that then becomes the lens in which everything is viewed .
////God has been pleased from all eternity to choose certain men and women out of mankind, whom by His counsel secret to us, He has decreed to save by Jesus Christ. None are finally saved except those who are thus chosen.////

This is the imagined scenario that is triggered every time a word like ' chosen ' is stumbled upon .

 

[Barry Johnson]

JC. Ryle offered this in his writing the Old Paths;

In handling the subject of Election, there are only two things which I propose to do.
Firstly, I will state the doctrine of Election, and show what it is.

Secondly, I will fence the subject with cautions, and guard it against abuse.

If I can make these two points clear and plain to the mind of all who read these pages, I think I shall have done their souls a great and essential service. I.

I have firstly to state the doctrine of Election. What is it? What does it mean?

Accurate statements on this point are of great importance.

No doctrine of Scripture perhaps has suffered so much damage from the erroneous conceptions of foes, and the incorrect descriptions of friends, as that which is now before us.

The true doctrine of Election I believe to be as follows.

God has been pleased from all eternity to choose certain men and women out of mankind, whom by His counsel secret to us, He has decreed to save by Jesus Christ. None are finally saved except those who are thus chosen.

Hence the Scripture gives to God's people in several places the names of "God's Elect," and the choice or appointment of them to eternal life is called "God's election." Those men and women whom God has been pleased to choose from all eternity, He calls in time, by His Spirit working in due season. He convinces them of sin. He leads them to Christ. He works in them repentance and faith. He converts, renews, and sanctifies them. He keeps them by His grace from falling away entirely, and finally brings them safe to glory.


In short God's eternal Election is the first link in that chain of a sinner's salvation of which heavenly glory is the end.

None ever repent, believe, and are born again, except the Elect.

The primary and original cause of salvation, is God's eternal election. The doctrine here stated, no doubt, is peculiarly deep, mysterious, and hard to understand. We have no eyes to see it fully. We have no line to fathom it thoroughly. No part of the Christian religion has been so much disputed, rejected, and reviled as this. None has called forth so much of that enmity against God, which is the grand mark of the carnal mind. Thousands of so-called Christians profess to believe the Atonement, salvation by grace, and justification by faith, and yet refuse to look at the doctrine of Election.

The very mention of the word to some people is enough to call forth expressions of anger, ill-temper, and passion.

But, after all, is the doctrine of Election plainly stated in Scripture? This is the whole question which an honest Christian has to do with. If it is not in the Book of God, let it be forever discarded, refused, and rejected by man, no matter who propounds it.

If it is there, let us receive it with reverence, as a part of Divine revelation, and humbly believe, even where we are not able to understand completely or explain fully.


What then is written in the Scriptures? "To the law and to the testimony—if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." (Isaiah. 8:20.)

Is Election in the Bible, or is it not? Does the Bible speak of certain people as God's Elect, or not? Hear what our Lord Jesus Christ says,

"For the Elect's sake the days shall be shortened." (Matt. 24:22.)

"If it were possible they should deceive even the Elect." (Mark 13:22.)

"He shall send His angels, and they shall gather together His Elect." (Matt. 24:31.)

"Shall not God avenge His own Elect?" (Luke 18:7.)

Hear what Paul says. "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." (Romans 8:29- 30) "Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's Elect?" (Rom. 8:33.)


"God has chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world." (Ephes. 1:4.)

"Who has saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works—but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began." (2 Tim. 1:9.)

"God has from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth." (2 Thess. 2:13.)

Hear what Peter says, "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ." (1 Peter 1:2.)

"Give diligence to make your calling and Election sure." (2 Peter 1:10.) I place these eleven texts before my readers, and I ask them to consider them well. If words have any meaning at all, they appear to me to teach most plainly the doctrine of personal Election. In the face of such texts I dare not refuse to believe that it is a Scriptural doctrine. I dare not, as an honest man, shut my eyes against the plain, obvious sense of Bible language. If I once began to do so, I should have no ground to stand on in pressing the Gospel on an unconverted man. I could not expect him to believe one set of texts to be true, if I did not believe another set.

The eleven texts above quoted seem to my mind to prove conclusively that personal Election is a doctrine of Scripture. As such I must receive it, and I must believe it, however difficult it may be. As such I ask my readers this day to look at it calmly, weigh it seriously, and receive it as God's truth.

The reformed concept of ' chosen to be converted ' is the most useless yet most damaging doctrine to the believer to fall foul of . He's already saved ,thats why its useless. According to its dictates its damaging because you don't know your one of the elect unless you persevere . This makes perseverance the goal and works the standard.

 

[Barry Johnson]

JC. Ryle offered this in his writing the Old Paths;

In handling the subject of Election, there are only two things which I propose to do.
Firstly, I will state the doctrine of Election, and show what it is.

Secondly, I will fence the subject with cautions, and guard it against abuse.

If I can make these two points clear and plain to the mind of all who read these pages, I think I shall have done their souls a great and essential service. I.

I have firstly to state the doctrine of Election. What is it? What does it mean?

Accurate statements on this point are of great importance.

No doctrine of Scripture perhaps has suffered so much damage from the erroneous conceptions of foes, and the incorrect descriptions of friends, as that which is now before us.

The true doctrine of Election I believe to be as follows.

God has been pleased from all eternity to choose certain men and women out of mankind, whom by His counsel secret to us, He has decreed to save by Jesus Christ. None are finally saved except those who are thus chosen.

Hence the Scripture gives to God's people in several places the names of "God's Elect," and the choice or appointment of them to eternal life is called "God's election." Those men and women whom God has been pleased to choose from all eternity, He calls in time, by His Spirit working in due season. He convinces them of sin. He leads them to Christ. He works in them repentance and faith. He converts, renews, and sanctifies them. He keeps them by His grace from falling away entirely, and finally brings them safe to glory.


In short God's eternal Election is the first link in that chain of a sinner's salvation of which heavenly glory is the end.

None ever repent, believe, and are born again, except the Elect.

The primary and original cause of salvation, is God's eternal election. The doctrine here stated, no doubt, is peculiarly deep, mysterious, and hard to understand. We have no eyes to see it fully. We have no line to fathom it thoroughly. No part of the Christian religion has been so much disputed, rejected, and reviled as this. None has called forth so much of that enmity against God, which is the grand mark of the carnal mind. Thousands of so-called Christians profess to believe the Atonement, salvation by grace, and justification by faith, and yet refuse to look at the doctrine of Election.

The very mention of the word to some people is enough to call forth expressions of anger, ill-temper, and passion.

But, after all, is the doctrine of Election plainly stated in Scripture? This is the whole question which an honest Christian has to do with. If it is not in the Book of God, let it be forever discarded, refused, and rejected by man, no matter who propounds it.

If it is there, let us receive it with reverence, as a part of Divine revelation, and humbly believe, even where we are not able to understand completely or explain fully.


What then is written in the Scriptures? "To the law and to the testimony—if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." (Isaiah. 8:20.)

Is Election in the Bible, or is it not? Does the Bible speak of certain people as God's Elect, or not? Hear what our Lord Jesus Christ says,

"For the Elect's sake the days shall be shortened." (Matt. 24:22.)

"If it were possible they should deceive even the Elect." (Mark 13:22.)

"He shall send His angels, and they shall gather together His Elect." (Matt. 24:31.)

"Shall not God avenge His own Elect?" (Luke 18:7.)

Hear what Paul says. "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." (Romans 8:29- 30) "Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's Elect?" (Rom. 8:33.)


"God has chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world." (Ephes. 1:4.)

"Who has saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works—but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began." (2 Tim. 1:9.)

"God has from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth." (2 Thess. 2:13.)

Hear what Peter says, "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ." (1 Peter 1:2.)

"Give diligence to make your calling and Election sure." (2 Peter 1:10.) I place these eleven texts before my readers, and I ask them to consider them well. If words have any meaning at all, they appear to me to teach most plainly the doctrine of personal Election. In the face of such texts I dare not refuse to believe that it is a Scriptural doctrine. I dare not, as an honest man, shut my eyes against the plain, obvious sense of Bible language. If I once began to do so, I should have no ground to stand on in pressing the Gospel on an unconverted man. I could not expect him to believe one set of texts to be true, if I did not believe another set.

The eleven texts above quoted seem to my mind to prove conclusively that personal Election is a doctrine of Scripture. As such I must receive it, and I must believe it, however difficult it may be. As such I ask my readers this day to look at it calmly, weigh it seriously, and receive it as God's truth.

/////The very mention of the word to some people is enough to call forth expressions of anger, ill-temper, and passion./////

I don't argue against the idea of " chosen to be converted ' theory because i think its unfair or anything like that . Its flat out not in the scriptures. Salvation is actually so much better than what Calvinism offers . This is my issue with Calvinism. It distorts the wonderful news of the Gospel.

 

[JonC]

Doctrine is formed by those the Churches consider have a teaching gift.

To deny doctrine is to put yourself above those God has chosen to lead his people.

Doctrine is teachings. That's it.

John Wesley certainly had a teaching gift. God used him in great ways to reach the lost with the gospel.
George Whitfield had a teaching gift. God used him in great ways to reach the lost with the gospel.

Their doctrine concerning the topic of the OP was different.

Which doctrine, which godly teacher, do you reject?

Even scripture speaks of testing doctrine.

I would consider viewing Church doctrine as if it were scripture would be to place one in the place of God by choosing one's own doctrine, one's own understanding, one's own interpretations as if they were in the text of Scripture (the standard by which we judge doctrine).

Note: This is, of course, form a Baptist perspective. Catholic churches, for example, would normally place the doctrine of the Catholic Church on par with Scripture.

 

[JonC]

I've found the moment you say this system or that theology is the best way to explain the bible or the best way to explain the gospel you've already stunted your growth . This is the least of the problems in reformed theology . But I would say the moment you align yourself wholeheartedly to a denomination , systematic theology or worldview you have already ran into trouble. We all at some point fall into one theological ditch or another and then find we have to shed off the baggage we've picked up along unwittingly. It should be so obvious. It's named after another man , you'd think that would be a red flag . But no , folks happily sail into the harbour of ' scholarly ' opinions of men, theological giants of old . I mean who can argue with theses men of old who gave us these darn systems to begin with. " Regeneration precedes faith " Amazing!!! you couldn't imagine it was possible to pull off ,but here we are sadly .

EXACTLY.

You know you are speaking to a false teacher the moment the phrases like "the plain teaching of scripture" comes out of his or her mouth.

Too many people assume that their theology or philosophy is "God given" and the teachers they like are "God given".

Christians should be able to discern where scripture ends and their understanding begins. But many cannot.

 

[AustinC]

EXACTLY.

You know you are speaking to a false teacher the moment the phrases like "the plain teaching of scripture" comes out of his or her mouth.

Too many people assume that their theology or philosophy is "God given" and the teachers they like are "God given".

Christians should be able to discern where scripture ends and their understanding begins. But many cannot.

2 Thessalonians 2:13-15
But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the first fruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.

Was Paul a false teacher?

Jon, I know you are generalizing in order to warn against false teachers, but surely you recognize your over simplification here.

 

[JonC]

2 Thessalonians 2:13-15
But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the first fruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.

Was Paul a false teacher?

Jon, I know you are generalizing in order to warn against false teachers, but surely you recognize your over simplification here.

Yes, it is an oversimplification, I agree.

Paul was not a false teacher as evidenced by the testing of his doctrine and the testimony of the Apostles and of the Spirit (Paul was an Apostle).

But using Paul is probably a bit off (unless we consider the writings of men like Spurgeon to be on par with the Pauline epistles...and I suspect some do).

My point is that we do not just accept doctrine from God given teachers. Wesley was no less God given than was Whitfield. We test doctrine even from these men because they are men.

Perhaps I am leaning to much on the side of caution. But I have seen damage done when Christians become disciples of men (even well meaning Christian men).

 

[AustinC]

Yes, it is an oversimplification, I agree.

Paul was not a false teacher as evidenced by the testing of his doctrine and the testimony of the Apostles and of the Spirit (Paul was an Apostle).

But using Paul is probably a bit off (unless we consider the writings of men like Spurgeon to be on par with the Pauline epistles...and I suspect some do).

My point is that we do not just accept doctrine from God given teachers. Wesley was no less God given than was Whitfield. We test doctrine even from these men because they are men.

Perhaps I am leaning to much on the side of caution. But I have seen damage done when Christians become disciples of men (even well meaning Christian men).

Indeed, when a person spends the majority of their time reading their favorite preachers books (I know a few MacArthurites) rather than reading scripture, there is a danger. We are all fallible and not all we write or say is godward.

 

[Yeshua1]

The reformed concept of ' chosen to be converted ' is the most useless yet most damaging doctrine to the believer to fall foul of . He's already saved ,thats why its useless. According to its dictates its damaging because you don't know your one of the elect unless you persevere . This makes perseverance the goal and works the standard.

The one who is really saved shall really persevere!

 

[Barry Johnson]

The one who is really saved shall really persevere!

That's my point . Thats why i called it the dreaded doctrines. Thats the trap . That's why the doctrines of Calvinism in all practical purposes is works based .

 

[Yeshua1]

EXACTLY.

You know you are speaking to a false teacher the moment the phrases like "the plain teaching of scripture" comes out of his or her mouth.

Too many people assume that their theology or philosophy is "God given" and the teachers they like are "God given".

Christians should be able to discern where scripture ends and their understanding begins. But many cannot.

Except that the "plain teaching of the scriptures" are usually what the cults and isms are not teaching!

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes, it is an oversimplification, I agree.

Paul was not a false teacher as evidenced by the testing of his doctrine and the testimony of the Apostles and of the Spirit (Paul was an Apostle).

But using Paul is probably a bit off (unless we consider the writings of men like Spurgeon to be on par with the Pauline epistles...and I suspect some do).

My point is that we do not just accept doctrine from God given teachers. Wesley was no less God given than was Whitfield. We test doctrine even from these men because they are men.

Perhaps I am leaning to much on the side of caution. But I have seen damage done when Christians become disciples of men (even well meaning Christian men).

Only the Apostles were inspired, so hope that no Baptist would place Calvin or Spurgeon on their levels!

 

[Barry Johnson]

Except that the "plain teaching of the scriptures" are usually what the cults and isms are not teaching!

Often when someone says " this is what the bible teaches " . its often at the expense of what the bible actually says .

 

[Yeshua1]

Indeed, when a person spends the majority of their time reading their favorite preachers books (I know a few MacArthurites) rather than reading scripture, there is a danger. We are all fallible and not all we write or say is godward.

It really happened in the case of study bibles, as many seemed to have thought the inspiration continued into say the notes of Scofield or Ryrie or MacArthur!

 

[Yeshua1]

Often when someone says " this is what the bible teaches " . its often at the expense of what the bible actually says .

The key wording though was the plain meaning, as in the intended meaning!