The dreaded doctrine of election and perseverance.

[JonC]

Gill was a hyper Calvinist.....

Perhaps. "Hyper" only indicates more than the one who uses the term.

 

[Yeshua1]

Perhaps. "Hyper" only indicates more than the one who uses the term.

Well, eternal Justification would be Hyper!

 

[JonC]

Well, eternal Justification would be Hyper!

I do not know that doctrine. The only thing I know about Gill off hand is he is theologically outdated, not relevant, a Calvinist, and believed Jesus to be Michael the Archangel. And being outdated and no longer relevant his works are avaliable free online and often utilized by wanna be Reformed theologians who have absolutely no formal theological education.

 

[Yeshua1]

I do not know that doctrine. The only thing I know about Gill off hand is he is theologically outdated, not relevant, a Calvinist, and believed Jesus to be Michael the Archangel. And being outdated and no longer relevant his works are avaliable free online and often utilized by wanna be Reformed theologians who have absolutely no formal theological education.

I would not just totally and casually ditch him as you did here, as he still was very good in much of his theology, as he was wrong in certain areas, but all are not named Apostles!

 

[AustinC]

The issue is cults and cult-like Christians use that term as a defense of doctrines they cannot legitimately defend.

Rather than engaging about different interpretations, perspectives, and theological conclusions they just jump to the end and play God by claiming there view is "the plain teachings".

From these people run. They do not grasp God's Word but rely on what can only be termed a "second special revelation".

Tell me about your theology. Tell me why you believe it. And then show me in the text of scripture that belief. If it is not in the text then explain how it was derived from the text.

But only a fool sees his or her understanding of scripture as scripture itself because that is not only elevating one's self in the place of God but it is demeaning God's Word.

The problem with the BB is that there are some posters here who display cult-like posts, but calling them out would result in myself being reprimanded.

 

[JonC]

The problem with the BB is that there are some posters here who display cult-like posts, but calling them out would result in myself being reprimanded.

Only if they complain and you do not do it nicely.

There are members here who I believe have a good theology, but at the same time arrive at that theology (and hold that theology) as if they were in Jonestown.

 

[Alan Gross]

This may sound like an unusual topic . But its my contention that the Doctrines of Election and Perseverence are the most damaging to the believer.
The reason for this is ultimately you cannot know the certainty of your election unless your perseverance is in keeping with your election and where it ought to be . This leads to the most crippling and paralysing thoughts that a believer can engage in . This for me is why Calvinsm has to be seriously questioned . This system is responsible for lack of growth within the body and lack of assurance and security leading to legalism and in all intentions and purposes a ' practical ' works based religion that has managed to claim itself as ' Christian ' . The Natural consequences of the System leads to ' Lordship salvation ' ,sold as a good thing and backed by virtue signalling and piety . Now I never argue against Calvinsm based on the philosophical arguments like ' fairness ' , freewill ect . But on this topic of Election and Perseverance this is where we get to the consequences of believing such doctrines.
I do hold to Eternal security, but nothing in the way of Lordship salvation.
This is a tough topic to wade through as there is a great deal of baggage and presuppositions abound in this area .
But what say you ?

Total Depravity must be Revealed to the sinner, by way of Conviction, prior to a soul Being Granted Repentance of their very being and its inability to produce anything but sin against an Angry, Thrice-Holy God and Faith in Jesus Christ as Their Savior.

Once an individual soul is Saved they are Teachable by The Spirit of The Divine Nature they now Partake of.

The Doctrine of Election and Perseverance,
which are prevalent and predominant in The Scriptures, Can Rationally be Taught them, then.

Not, before.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Total Depravity must be Revealed to the sinner, by way of Conviction, prior to a soul Being Granted Repentance of their very being and its inability to produce anything but sin against an Angry, Thrice-Holy God and Faith in Jesus Christ as Their Savior.

Once an individual soul is Saved they are Teachable by The Spirit of The Divine Nature they now Partake of.

The Doctrine of Election and Perseverance,
which are prevalent and predominant in The Scriptures, Can Rationally be Taught them, then.

Not, before.

There's nothing in scripture that says that .

 

[Alan Gross]

There's nothing in scripture that says that .

Oh, that's how God Saves souls, btw, FYI, omg, smh, not lol.

The soul must be lost before it can be Saved.

Jesus Came to Seek and to Save that which was lost.

Not the well, who need not a Physician.

If a soul has not experienced being 'sick' unto death, a putrifying soar, God-hating, and Justly Hellbound, they may very well have not experienced Salvation.

The test would be whether they have a Spirit that Bears Witness with The Words of God, Who is Spirit.

"There are none that does good".

Then, they are Teachable, to the Things of God.

Otherwise, they are 'ever learning' Wizards of Smart who look down on God, still, and do not bring Him Praise or Glory, as evidence of their Total Depravity to which they are oblivious and Totally Depraved.

They worship Satan, indirectly through the Beast,
by worshipping the Creature, rather than The Creator.

"For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:" Isaiah 14:13.

Sin is dreaded.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Oh, that's how God Saves souls, btw, FYI, omg, smh, not lol.

The soul must be lost before it can be Saved.

Jesus Came to Seek and to Save that which was lost.

Not the well, who need not a Physician.

If a soul has not experienced being 'sick' unto death, a putrifying soar, God-hating, and Justly Hellbound, they may very well have not experienced Salvation.

The test would be whether they have a Spirit that Bears Witness with The Words of God, Who is Spirit.

"There are none that does good".

Then, they are Teachable, to the Things of God.

Otherwise, they are 'ever learning' Wizards of Smart who look down on God, still, and do not bring Him Praise or Glory, as evidence of their Total Depravity to which they are oblivious and Totally Depraved.

They worship Satan, indirectly through the Beast,
by worshipping the Creature, rather than The Creator.

"For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:" Isaiah 14:13.

Sin is dreaded.

Gentiles were never ' lost ' . Eph 2.11-12
Or Sheep .
Mat 15 .
24¶But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

25¶Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

26¶But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.

 

[AustinC]

Gentiles were never ' lost ' . Eph 2.11-12
Or Sheep .
Mat 15 .
24¶But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

25¶Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

26¶But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.

This is a twisted rejection of God's elect being from every nation, tribe and tongue as expressed in scripture.

I am not sure why you cannot accept God's choosing of people from all nations, tribes and tongues. Perhaps you can explain your disgust since this is a truth clearly taught in scripture, within context.

 

[Barry Johnson]

This is a twisted rejection of God's elect being from every nation, tribe and tongue as expressed in scripture.

I am not sure why you cannot accept God's choosing of people from all nations, tribes and tongues. Perhaps you can explain your disgust since this is a truth clearly taught in scripture, within context.

Because everytime its IN TIME . Jesus is the ONLY elect before the foundation of the world . He's the preexisting one not us . Wake up !!!

 

[Alan Gross]

from: CHURCH CHARACTERISTICS.
Was the First Church a Baptist Church?

1. The First Church was Composed of Saved Persons.

If John the Baptist had baptized the multitude who applied for baptism (see Matthew 3:7-10 and Luke 3:7-9), it would perhaps have sealed their damnation. Why? Because they were destitute of the Spiritual prerequisites to baptism, and hence their baptism could only have been in "form" or, "according to the letter."

A man must first believe in Christ, and "whosoever believeth in the Son of God hath the witness in himself " (1 John 5:10); "hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation" (John 5:24); "has been born of God" (1 John 5:1) and "overcometh the world" (1 John 5:4-5), "is justified" (Rom: 5:1). Yea, he must have the blessings predicated of Repentance, Faith, Love, Confession, or baptism will lead him away and astray, and that to his own destruction. How can a man obey in Spirit without Spiritual qualification? If Spiritual fitness is not inquired into, then soon it will not be required. You need not expect it if you don’t enact it; if not taught it will not be sought; if not held it will not be had. If candidates go down into the water without having died to sin, and that means freedom from sin, and with no newness of life, then his baptism, so called, would be a solemn profession of falsehoods. Romans 6:1-11 has no reference to baptism of the Holy Spirit, or by the Holy Spirit, or in the Holy Spirit, yet it is Spiritual baptism. It is not the natural man conforming to the letter, but the Spiritual man conforming to both better and Spirit of baptism.



2. They Were Discipled Before They Were Baptized (Matthew 28:19-20 and John 4:10). Others, as a rule, believe in discipling by baptizing. See A. Campbell, and Pedobaptist writers generally, and especially their practice.

3. They Repented Before They Were Baptized (Matthew 1:2, 7, 8; Luke 3:6, 8; Mark 1:4; Acts 13:24, etc). Baptist churches require evidence of Repentance before baptism. No others do.

4. They Were Convicted Before They, Repented (John 16:8-9; Acts 2:37; 1 Cor. 14:26-27). Baptist churches only make enquiry about this work of the Holy Spirit. All Baptists do not, but they violate the old-time rule of Baptists.

5. They Repented Before They Believed (Mark 1:15; Matthew 21:22; Acts 2:38 and 19:4; Heb. 6:1). Baptists believe the order is of vital importance. The order reversed is fatal to both repentance and faith.

6. They Were Baptized When They Believed (Acts 2:41; 8:12 ; 18:8). Not when they repented, or when eight days old, etc., as the custom of some is, or when born of a believing parent or parents, as the rule of others is. When they believe, is the time. This is characteristic only of Baptist churches.

7. They Experienced Conversion Before They Were Baptized (Acts 2:37 and 41; 10:43-47; Matthew 3:8-10). "Works meet for repentance" are the voluntary fruits of a good tree.

 

[Barry Johnson]

from: CHURCH CHARACTERISTICS.
Was the First Church a Baptist Church?

1. The First Church was Composed of Saved Persons.

If John the Baptist had baptized the multitude who applied for baptism (see Matthew 3:7-10 and Luke 3:7-9), it would perhaps have sealed their damnation. Why? Because they were destitute of the Spiritual prerequisites to baptism, and hence their baptism could only have been in "form" or, "according to the letter."

A man must first believe in Christ, and "whosoever believeth in the Son of God hath the witness in himself " (1 John 5:10); "hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation" (John 5:24); "has been born of God" (1 John 5:1) and "overcometh the world" (1 John 5:4-5), "is justified" (Rom: 5:1). Yea, he must have the blessings predicated of Repentance, Faith, Love, Confession, or baptism will lead him away and astray, and that to his own destruction. How can a man obey in Spirit without Spiritual qualification? If Spiritual fitness is not inquired into, then soon it will not be required. You need not expect it if you don’t enact it; if not taught it will not be sought; if not held it will not be had. If candidates go down into the water without having died to sin, and that means freedom from sin, and with no newness of life, then his baptism, so called, would be a solemn profession of falsehoods. Romans 6:1-11 has no reference to baptism of the Holy Spirit, or by the Holy Spirit, or in the Holy Spirit, yet it is Spiritual baptism. It is not the natural man conforming to the letter, but the Spiritual man conforming to both better and Spirit of baptism.



2. They Were Discipled Before They Were Baptized (Matthew 28:19-20 and John 4:10). Others, as a rule, believe in discipling by baptizing. See A. Campbell, and Pedobaptist writers generally, and especially their practice.

3. They Repented Before They Were Baptized (Matthew 1:2, 7, 8; Luke 3:6, 8; Mark 1:4; Acts 13:24, etc). Baptist churches require evidence of Repentance before baptism. No others do.

4. They Were Convicted Before They, Repented (John 16:8-9; Acts 2:37; 1 Cor. 14:26-27). Baptist churches only make enquiry about this work of the Holy Spirit. All Baptists do not, but they violate the old-time rule of Baptists.

5. They Repented Before They Believed (Mark 1:15; Matthew 21:22; Acts 2:38 and 19:4; Heb. 6:1). Baptists believe the order is of vital importance. The order reversed is fatal to both repentance and faith.

6. They Were Baptized When They Believed (Acts 2:41; 8:12 ; 18:8). Not when they repented, or when eight days old, etc., as the custom of some is, or when born of a believing parent or parents, as the rule of others is. When they believe, is the time. This is characteristic only of Baptist churches.

7. They Experienced Conversion Before They Were Baptized (Acts 2:37 and 41; 10:43-47; Matthew 3:8-10). "Works meet for repentance" are the voluntary fruits of a good tree.

This is a twisted rejection of God's elect being from every nation, tribe and tongue as expressed in scripture.

I am not sure why you cannot accept God's choosing of people from all nations, tribes and tongues. Perhaps you can explain your disgust since this is a truth clearly taught in scripture, within context.

This theology is no different to the Jw who think their ' anointed ones are the 144000 . This is where you end up with replacement theology .

 

[Yeshua1]

Because everytime its IN TIME . Jesus is the ONLY elect before the foundation of the world . He's the preexisting one not us . Wake up !!!

The Father chose us in Him to be found from eternity past!

 

[Barry Johnson]

The Father chose us in Him to be found from eternity past!

I would meditate on that sentence for a while and ask " does that even make sense ?"

 

[Yeshua1]

I would meditate on that sentence for a while and ask " does that even make sense ?"

God exists outside of time, correct?

 

[Barry Johnson]

The Father chose us in Him to be found from eternity past!

Do you have a verse that says the Father chose us in him to be found from eternity past. I mean seriously ? Anywhere in scripture that says we are ' known ' before we exist ? let alone that the Father chose us to be converted later ?

 

[Barry Johnson]

God exists outside of time, correct?

I think we have many theories based on such little information. I would be fairly comfortable that God may see everything at a glance. Past , present and future at once . But I believe people make wild doctrines out of philosophy in this area .

 

[Barry Johnson]

This is a twisted rejection of God's elect being from every nation, tribe and tongue as expressed in scripture.

I am not sure why you cannot accept God's choosing of people from all nations, tribes and tongues. Perhaps you can explain your disgust since this is a truth clearly taught in scripture, within context.

24¶But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

25¶Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

26¶But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.