Calvinism and its glaring oversights .

[Dave G]

To the OP,
I would reply with a few comments of my own and these will be my final replies ( to the best of my intentions ) in this thread:


Firstly,
It is my firm belief that Kevin Thompson is not a "non-Arminian" / "non-Calvinist".
He is someone who believes and teaches 4 of the five "points" of modern "Arminianism" as spelled out here:

An Outline of the FACTS of Arminianism vs. The TULIP of Calvinism

This should be readily apparent to anyone who looks at the different doctrinal teachings within the professing body of Christ and how they are grouped and defined.
In place of the fifth "point" of loss of salvation, Mr. Thompson appears to insert something called "eternal security", which is part of what I grew up being taught in the churches I was once a member of and the ones that I visited as a young believer.

While "Calvinists" do indeed believe and teach that the believer is secure in their salvation, we do so fully knowing that there are "wheat" and there are "tares" among the field of Christ's sheep ( Matthew 13 )...that not everyone who says that they believe, has actually been born again and has the Spirit of God dwelling in them ( Matthew 7:21-23, Romans 8:5-9 ).

We also teach that the reason that Christ's sheep are secure in their salvation, is because of God's love for a people from before the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1:3-14, Ephesians 2:1-10, Romans 8:28-30, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 ).

That is what we believe and that is what we declare with no reservation.

 

[Dave G]

Secondly,
Kevin's entire video, from my perspective, starts out sounding neutral enough...but by 00:09 his actual purpose becomes readily apparent:

He is once again, not being neutral nor is he being positive... and much of his ministry, "Beyond the Fundamentals" ( whatever that means I do not know, as every word of God is important and there are no "fundamentals of the faith".. there is the faith once delivered to the saints, Jude 1:3 ) is built in opposition to certain doctrinal teachings as found in God's word.

Instead, this video, like almost all of his videos on YouTube, is geared towards showing the viewer how what he calls "Calvinism" is supposedly unscriptural and how that "Calvinists" are being irrational in their thinking and reasoning.

To that I would state:

"Yes, we know that we are being "irrational", but it is a matter of perspective... To those who believe and teach that salvation is accomplished by man's efforts plus God's efforts, we would say, "guilty as charged"."

We point to the Scriptures that show God choosing a people to Himself, and we believe them as they are.
We point to the Scriptures that show God hating those who hate Him and loving others, that He hides Himself from some and reveals Himself to others, and it sobers us to know that "the whosoever believeth", from the heart ( not those who believe for a time and fall away from the faith ) are the recipients of His grace and mercy while the ones who draw near to Him with their lips, but refuse to obey His commands and who love this world and its ways, are not and never were His sheep.


Speaking for myself, I see that Mr. Thompson will not be convinced of his error unless it be the Lord's will that he believe the words on the page...
And to that end I pray most assuredly that it be so, especially in the light of God's grace towards a sinner such as myself.

That in his many points that he has listed at 03:40, his actual purpose is not to encourage and exhort believers to trust God's words as they are written, but to show that the teachings of election, predestination, calling and justification are in error...
and instead of being a comfort and a solid foundation to those who trust in Christ as their Saviour and Lord ( both in this life and in the one to come ), they function as a confusing thorn in the side of their faith and belief in Jesus Christ.

I realize that these are strong words, but they are, nonetheless, what I believe to be the truth and I will not make apology for them.

 

[Dave G]

Thirdly,
I see that the purpose of this thread is not to review what the Scriptures actually say and to be edified by it, nor is it to hammer out things that seem a bit hard to understand;.
Its purpose seems to be to cast doubt upon parts of God's word and to cause unnecessary contention and strife.

We as "Calvinists" understand that some people take exception to God's grace as born out in the details of God's every word...
We also maintain that those of us who see the Scriptures teaching that salvation is entirely of God, start to finish, will always do so and that no matter what accusations are thrown at us, we will not cease from declaring the truth of it.

The Scripture declares, in no uncertain terms for those who have ears to hear and eyes to see, that were it not for election, predestination, calling and justification, not one man, woman or child would ever have a place at His table...

We would all be in Hell, where we rightfully belong.



May the Lord be pleased to bless all who read this with a sure motivation to search these truths out in His precious word for themselves, and may He be pleased to grant all who read this both the ears to hear and the eyes to see His every word.

I wish you well in your daily walk with Him, and remember that He is a friend that sticks closer than a brother and that He has provided a way to boldly come to His throne of grace, that we may find help in time of need...

His Son, Jesus Christ, whom we call upon out of a pure heart and in spirit and in truth.

 

[SavedByGrace]

God loves all without exception (the world)

so if this is true, and is used here in the context of salvation, then it is obvious that this "giving" of Jesus as referring to His Death on the cross, must be for "all without exception". This does not mean that ALL will be saved, as "πᾶς ὁ πιστεν́ων" (whosoever believes), expresses the universal offer of salvation, with a "condition" attached to it. The use of the present active participle, shows that, not only the "initial belief" of those who reapond to this offer, but of their "continued belief" in Jesus Christ.

 

[MB]

You have just done the very thing you accuse me of, focusing on one verse and deliberately ignoring another. The difference is I selected one verse to show that TULIP is supported by scripture (which the OP claims was not so) and you have deliberately ignored that verse to play “scripture pong” and make false accusations against fellow members of the body of Christ.

No I haven't. I addressed each as they truly are, your accusation is false as usual. You have not presented any scripture that supports total depravity. In fact you haven't shown anything that supports your doctrines of grace at all. You're the one who will present a verse and then claim what it says supports your doctrine but when read in context your Calvinism is shown to be false it just is not there you just imagine it is.
MB

 

[MB]

John 8:43-47.
1 Corinthians 2:6-16.

All the old testament was written to the Jews however William Tyndale's writtings means absolutely nothing to me.
MB

 

[atpollard]

have you heard of "teaching granny to suck eggs"?

No.

 

[SavedByGrace]

No.

to give advice to someone about a subject that they already know about

 

[Iconoclast]

the Death of Christ is universal, however, only those who repent and believe will be saved. There is no universal salvation taught in the Bible.

The death of Christ was a Covenant death that saves everyone believing. That was all it was intended to save.

 

[SavedByGrace]

The death of Christ was a Covenant death that saves everyone believing. That was all it was intended to save.

I have already said this a few times recently. Luke 22 on the Lord's Supper is very clear that Judas actually eat the bread and drank the wine representing the body and blood of Jesus. Jesus told the 12 that He was going to the cross to die for all of their sins. There is no escaping these facts

 

[Iconoclast]

"SavedByGrace,

herein lies the Reformed contradictions

!
No, herein lies your lack of understanding.

God, who is ALL KNOWING, knew from eternity past that the greater majority of the human race will reject the Gospel and end up in hell.

God considered all as dead in Adam. In Mercy, He set His love on a multitude of guilty sinners and saves them. They are the elect of all ages.

So, WHY would God "call ALL men to salvation", when He knows from eternity past, that this "call" would be rejected by the majority, and not simply call the elect, who, according to Reformed teaching, are "chosen to salvation", even before they are born???

God has designed all the means of grace needed to savingly draw the elect to Himself. They are not found only in Israel, but worldwide.

[QUOTE]Further, by accepting 1 Timothy 2:1-4, where it says "all", to refer to "all men", as in the human race, as your argument goes. Then you must also accept that the words in verse 6, also refers to these "all", "Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time", and therefore means that Jesus Christ has died for the entire human race.[/QUOTE]

The contrast in the NT. is between salvation in Israel only, or in all the world.

 

[SavedByGrace]

"SavedByGrace,

!
No, herein lies your lack of understanding.



God considered all as dead in Adam. In Mercy, He set His love on a multitude of guilty sinners and saves them. They are the elect of all ages.



God has designed all the means of grace needed to savingly draw the elect to Himself. They are not found only in Israel, but worldwide.

[QUOTE]Further, by accepting 1 Timothy 2:1-4, where it says "all", to refer to "all men", as in the human race, as your argument goes. Then you must also accept that the words in verse 6, also refers to these "all", "Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time", and therefore means that Jesus Christ has died for the entire human race.

The contrast in the NT. is between salvation in Israel only, or in all the world.[/QUOTE]

More theological nonsense

 

[MB]

The death of Christ was a Covenant death that saves everyone believing. That was all it was intended to save.

You have no idea of what God intended. If it were up to you the Gospel would never have been preached to every living creature since only you and your friends are the only ones going to be saved. hehehehehehehhehehe!
MB

 

[Iconoclast]

The contrast in the NT. is between salvation in Israel only, or in all the world.

More theological nonsense[/QUOTE]

The Only nonsense is coming from your keyboard,Jesus taught both of these things;
5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

To Israel first.....
Then the gentiles;
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Jesus did not teach nonsense, neither did Paul;
46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

 

[SavedByGrace]

More theological nonsense

The Only nonsense is coming from your keyboard,Jesus taught both of these things;
5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

To Israel first.....
Then the gentiles;
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Jesus did not teach nonsense, neither did Paul;
46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.


[/QUOTE]

Can you deal with Judas taking the Lord's Supper

 

[Iconoclast]

You have no idea of what God intended. If it were up to you the Gospel would never have been preached to every living creature since only you and your friends are the only ones going to be saved. hehehehehehehhehehe!
MB

I have an exact idea of what God intended as He has revealed it to the Church.

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

God's elective plan has been unfolding throughout history. For your own strange reasons you oppose these truths. No one is following you down that path.

 

[SavedByGrace]

This passage destroys much of Calvinism and no Reformed/Calvinist can really answer it

New King James Version Luke 22:20-22 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you. But behold, the hand of My betrayer is with Me on the table. And truly the Son of Man goes as it has been determined, but woe to that man by whom He is betrayed!”

 

[Iconoclast]

Can you deal with Judas taking the Lord's Supper

The sinful betrayal by Judas was ordained before he was born;

psalm41:9 Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.
In luke 22;
47 And while he yet spake, behold a multitude, and he that was called Judas, one of the twelve, went before them, and drew near unto Jesus to kiss him.

48 But Jesus said unto him, Judas, betrayest thou the Son of man with a kiss?

Then in Jn17;
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

 

[SavedByGrace]

The sinful betrayal by Judas was ordained before he was born;

psalm41:9 Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.
In luke 22;
47 And while he yet spake, behold a multitude, and he that was called Judas, one of the twelve, went before them, and drew near unto Jesus to kiss him.

48 But Jesus said unto him, Judas, betrayest thou the Son of man with a kiss?

Then in Jn17;
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Still avoiding the passage that clearly shows Judas took the bread and wine and Jesus telling him that He was to die for his sins. No amount of passages that you can quote can change this fact

 

[MB]

"SavedByGrace,

!
No, herein lies your lack of understanding.



God considered all as dead in Adam. In Mercy, He set His love on a multitude of guilty sinners and saves them. They are the elect of all ages.



God has designed all the means of grace needed to savingly draw the elect to Himself. They are not found only in Israel, but worldwide.

[QUOTE]Further, by accepting 1 Timothy 2:1-4, where it says "all", to refer to "all men", as in the human race, as your argument goes. Then you must also accept that the words in verse 6, also refers to these "all", "Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time", and therefore means that Jesus Christ has died for the entire human race.

The contrast in the NT. is between salvation in Israel only, or in all the world.[/QUOTE]
You should be praying that you are wrong because if you are right

I have an exact idea of what God intended as He has revealed it to the Church.

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

God's elective plan has been unfolding throughout history. For your own strange reasons you oppose these truths. No one is following you down that path.

I'm not alone as you may believe. In this tiny little board I may not have many supporters but I have Christ Jesus. I believe His will and that is that we all believe in Him because He is not willing that any perrish
2Pe_3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
This you deny sadly
MB