Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Don't be fooled here. @SavedByGrace took the comments of both Calvin and Dabney out of context and twisted what they were actually saying.
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John 3:16-18
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Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
So one translator got it right and everyone else is wrong because it fits your narrative?
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
John Calvin
Mark 14.24
Which is shed for many. By the word many he means not a part of the world only, but the whole human race; for he contrasts many with one; as if he had said, that he will not be the Redeemer of one man only, but will die in order to deliver many from the condemnation of the curse. It must at the same time be observed, however, that by the words for you, as related by Luke — Christ directly addresses the disciples, and exhorts every believer to apply to his own advantage the shedding of blood Therefore, when we approach to the holy table, let us not only remember in general that the world has been redeemed by the blood of Christ, but let every one consider for himself that his own sins have been expiated
Colossians 1.14
In whom we have redemption. He now proceeds to set forth in order, that all parts of our salvation are contained in Christ, and that he alone ought to shine forth, and to be seen conspicuous above all creatures, inasmuch as he is the beginning and end of all things. In the first place, he says that we have redemption and immediately explains it as meaning the remission of sins; for these two things agree together by apposition For, unquestionably, when God remits our transgressions, he exempts us from condemnation to eternal death. This is our liberty, this our glorying in the face of death — that our sins are not imputed to us. He says that this redemption was procured through the blood of Christ, for by the sacrifice of his death all the sins of the world have been expiated. Let us, therefore, bear in mind, that this is the sole price of reconciliation, and that all the trifling of Papists as to satisfactions is blasphemy.
Mark 14.24
Which is shed for many. By the word many he means not a part of the world only, but the whole human race; for he contrasts many with one; as if he had said, that he will not be the Redeemer of one man only, but will die in order to deliver many from the condemnation of the curse. It must at the same time be observed, however, that by the words for you, as related by Luke — Christ directly addresses the disciples, and exhorts every believer to apply to his own advantage the shedding of blood Therefore, when we approach to the holy table, let us not only remember in general that the world has been redeemed by the blood of Christ, but let every one consider for himself that his own sins have been expiated
Colossians 1.14
In whom we have redemption. He now proceeds to set forth in order, that all parts of our salvation are contained in Christ, and that he alone ought to shine forth, and to be seen conspicuous above all creatures, inasmuch as he is the beginning and end of all things. In the first place, he says that we have redemption and immediately explains it as meaning the remission of sins; for these two things agree together by apposition For, unquestionably, when God remits our transgressions, he exempts us from condemnation to eternal death. This is our liberty, this our glorying in the face of death — that our sins are not imputed to us. He says that this redemption was procured through the blood of Christ, for by the sacrifice of his death all the sins of the world have been expiated. Let us, therefore, bear in mind, that this is the sole price of reconciliation, and that all the trifling of Papists as to satisfactions is blasphemy.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
You have already lost all credibility when quoting reformed theologians by taking their comments out of context to skew the perception of those who read your comments.
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
V.15 - whosoever = individual
V.15 - believeth = individual (singular)
V.16 - whosoever = individual
V.16 - believeth = individual (singular)
V.18 - he = individual
V.18 - he = individual
V.18 - he = individual
V.20 - every one = individual
Etc.
+
The Lord likens his salvation to:
Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
That "salvation" in the wilderness was a provision for all, not just some elect Jews.
Any man that looked toward it could have availed himself of that salvation.
So, clearly, every individual.
There is no way out, because if you make this every individual within the elect, you disprove the point by trying to prove it, for if it applies to every individual within the world of the elect, then the same logic would cover every individual within the world of mankind. You may counter that by appealing to other verses, but within John 3 itself, it is inescapable, whatever your angle, that every individual within the world, whatever that world may be, is targeted.
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SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
Vs 15-16...speak of EVERYONE BELIEVING....not everyone ever born
Dr A T Robertson
The world (ton kosmon). The whole cosmos of men, including Gentiles, the whole human race. This universal aspect of God's love appears also in 2 Corinthians 5:19 ; Romans 5:8 .
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
Well said brother!
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Yes and notice those individual words are tied to other words in the passage and not the word world.
Yes believeth in verse 15 is talking about individuals and it is tied to whosoever, the same is true in verse 16, it is tied to the whosoever. the same is in the following verses.
The salvation in the wilderness was a provision for those who believed only. Not everyone. Yes anyone that looked could have received salvation just like anyone who believes will have salvation. But that's not the true argument you are making. You are transporting that to mean that everyone can believe when they cannot.
Your points have been noted but they do not advance your argument in the slightest.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Well said, perhaps, but it actually said nothing to further your point.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Notice Robertson here is not talking about individuals, but all people groups. The whole human race.
It is every believing one who continues on in a state of believing found anywhere in the world.
A.t. robertson speaks to the scope or extent of the gospel.
Rom5 : 8 is speaking of the justified of rom5:1
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
Sorry but saying that the whosoever is not a part of the world leads us into a world of logic-denying non-sense where meaning breaks down.
But let's take the jump:
If world = world of the elect exclusively, and whosoever believeth is not tied to that world, then, logically, believers are not part of the world of the elect.
You can't have it both ways: making the world equal believers but then saying believers are not connected to the world.
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SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
John 3. 16 says that the offer of the Gospel in the Lord Jesus Christ is to the entire human race. Every single person ever born and will be born. This does not mean that every single person will be saved but only those who actually repent of their sins and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour and Lord
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
These arguments used by the so called reformed are plain dumb. It has nothing to do with the Bible's teachings but their warped theology
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Except that is not what I said. I said the whosoever is a subset of the world.
Your problem and the problem that @SavedByGrace has is that you keep trying to tell us what we are saying except the problem is that it is not what we are saying.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Except it's not our arguments. It is what you twist our arguments to be.
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
Classic. What I submit to you is that such rampant misunderstanding as is often decried of the Calvinists is largely self-induced, because the goal posts move constantly and the theology is contortionist.
So, I misunderstood. Please restate your point to the best of your ability, I want to understand it.
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
Watch "John 3:16 Dr James White - Does it say "Whoever?"" on YouTube
here you go
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
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