Who Draws Men Unto the Son?

[Dave G]

Calvinism denies anyone can believe such that God will credit that faith as righteousness. Scripture teaches the exact opposite.

What is commonly called "Calvinism" ( by those who oppose God's choice of the sinner to salvation apart from any effort of men ) affirms the Scriptural teaching that there is a remnant according to the election ( choosing ) of grace ( Romans 11:1-7 ).

While I agree with you that God credits a person's faith as righteousness per Romans 4:1-8, outside of the work of God for His elect( not everyone ), no person would have ever sought the Lord from the heart;
Their faith is a product of God's work within a person, and without the Lord authoring and finishing their faith ( Hebrews 12:2 ) and it coming to them as a gift from Christ, that very same faith that God credits as righteousness would never have existed in the first place.

All glory goes to God for anyone approaching Him as a little child ( Psalms 65:4 ), and their exhibiting the humble faith that the Lord has made possible to them in His mercy.

 

[Dave G]

The faith of the lost is worthless, and could not pry anything out of God.

I agree, as the lost do not have the faith that is "of Christ" ( Galatians 2:16-20 ) which is the evidence ( Hebrews 11:1 ) of that work that was begun in God's saints ( Philippians 1:6 ) and will be continued until the day they go to be with their Saviour and Lord.
In other words, the lost do not and cannot possess true, biblical faith.

Given that salvation cannot be merited by any means...
A person's faith cannot and will not ever influence the Lord to save them.
Eternal life is a gift ( Romans 6:23 )... not a reward that can be appropriated by exchanging one thing for another.

I also see Scripture nowhere declaring that eternal salvation is by faith...only that it is through faith ( Ephesians 2:8 ).
That a person's faith actually results in God granting to them the gift of eternal life ( which is only given to those that were given to the Son by the Father ( John 17:2 ) anyway ), can be concluded from it, but not without dismissing or conditioning many things that contradict this view, from my perspective.

Again, you see it your way, and I see it mine.

The claim faith must be meritorious is just another false doctrine pushed by Calvinism.

I disagree.
The claim that not even a person's faith is meritorious ( but is rather a gift made possible by God first working in a person ), is confirmed in this one statement:

" For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
9 not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." ( Ephesians 2:8-10 ).

For more Scriptural support, please see Romans 4:4, Romans 11:5-6, and several others.
But to counter this, you appear to claim that faith is not a work ( which to you is apparently defined as any attempt to keep the Law ), while I view works as any effort by men to gain God's favor apart from Him granting it, completely uninfluenced by our decisions or actions to gain it.

I hold that dead sinners, who hate the Lord and His ways and refuse to repent because of their love of sin ( Romans 1:30-32, Romans 3:10-18, John 3:19-20 ), can not and will not come to God on His terms...


Those terms include permanently forsaking that which we, as a race have grown accustomed to ( Jeremiah 13:23 ) and love to the exclusion of a true relationship with our Creator, who has extended His hand repeatedly through His continuous acts of goodness to us ( Romans 2:4-5 ).

 

[Hark]

I believe the Father and Son sends the Spirit into the redeemed to effect the drawing, so all Three Persons of the Godhead are involved in drawing. In fact the drawing entails I believe being born again by the Spirit.

Then what do you do with the scripture testifying otherwise that it is the Father's will that is being done for why the Son & the Holy Spirit are subject to?

The Father can hide the truth from the prudent & the wise & reveal unto babes regarding His Son per Matthew 11:25-27

The Father knows the hearts of man of whom is seeking Him from those that prefer their evil deeds in John 3:18-21 for why He hides the truth of His Son from them per Matthew 11:25-27

It is the Father that gives sinners that seek Him to the Son to be saved as this is the Father's will; John 6:38-40

Since scripture testify of the only time the Holy Spirit will be sent & that is at our salvation & once received at the knocking of the door of Jesus, not to be received again les the Father looked evil as if He did not give you the Holy Spirit the first time as promised per Luke 11:9-13, you have yet to provide scripture to testify to your belief.

I am sure there are a lot of external influence & outside sources that suggest your belief but scripture reproves it plainly.

Since the Son of God/Son of Man died on the cross, not the Holy Spirit & not the Father, then scripture does give credit sometimes specifically to One Witness of the Three Witnesses within the One God, so then let us testify what scriptures says rather than go outside of His words as to Who it is that plainly draws men unto the Son; John 6:44.

 

[Van]

And people wonder why my posts are so longmade manifest, that they are wrought in God. KJV
SNIP
Parting thought, if you are going to post that something is falsehood, should you not have included scripture to prove that? As it is, scripture has been given to testify that it is hardly falsehood.
SNIP

John 6:45

 

[Van]

According to John 6:28-29, the people ask Jesus what work they can do to work the work of God. Jesus said to believe in Him Whom He has sent. That means only God can do God's work. And since our believing in Him is a work of God per John 3:18-21, believers can rest in Jesus Christ for everything.

That means the opposite of Calvinism's bogus claim, see the NET translation.

 

[Van]

John 6:29 tells me that....SNIP

The bogus claim of Calvinism has been shown to be an argument from ambiguity, and Dr. Dan Wallace has provided the clarity.

 

[Van]

SNIP the context of John 3:14-20 tells me quite a bit. SNIP
.

Calvinists constantly claim "context" says the verse does not mean what it says. Complete rubbish.
Everyone believing into Him (being placed into Christ on the basis of God crediting that person's own faith as righteousness.

 

[Van]

SNIP

While I agree with you that God credits a person's faith as righteousness per Romans 4:1-8, outside of the work of God for His elect( not everyone ), no person would have ever sought the Lord from the heart; SNIP
.

Material false statement, Matthew 23:13

 

[Dave G]

The bogus claim of Calvinism has been shown to be an argument from ambiguity,

An ambiguity that it seems you are experiencing, sir...
I am not.

and Dr. Dan Wallace has provided the clarity.

I'm sorry, but I don't recognize the opinions of men to determine my understanding of God's word.
With all due respect, perhaps you do, but I do not.

 

[Van]

I agree, as the lost do not have the faith that is "of Christ" ( Galatians 2:16-20 ) SNIP
.

Gal 2:16
yet we know that no one is justified by the works of the law but by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ. And we have come to believe in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by the faithfulness of Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

On and on folks one verse after another is claimed to say the opposite of what the verse actually says. Some of the lost have "come to believe."

 

[Dave G]

yet we know that no one is justified by the works of the law but by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ. And we have come to believe in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by the faithfulness of Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

Respectfully, sir, my Bible says it differently, and I trust the words:

" knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, [is] therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." ( Galatians 2:16-20 ).

"Of" means "by or from".

Therefore, the faith that I have is from Christ, authored and finished by Him ( Hebrews 12:2 )...
Not me.

 

[Van]

An ambiguity that it seems you are experiencing, sir...
I am not.
I'm sorry, but I don't recognize the opinions of men to determine my understanding of God's word.
With all due respect, perhaps you do, but I do not.

Complete rubbish, your expressed views are party line Calvinism that has to be read into scripture. There is no support anywhere in scripture for those bogus views. Not the T, the U, the L, or the I. OSAS is valid doctrine.

 

[Van]

Respectfully, sir, my Bible says it differently,) SNIP

Your view is man-made, based on reading into an ambiguous phrase (work of God) and does not reflect what the Bible says.[/QUOTE]

 

[Dave G]

Some of the lost have "come to believe."

Per 1 Corinthians 1:18, none of the lost have come to believe...
Only the saved ( the "lost" or wayward children of God ) will see the preaching of the cross as being the power of God:

" For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where [is] the wise? where [is] the scribe? where [is] the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 but we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 but unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God." ( 1 Corinthians 1:18-24 ).

Have you heard the preaching of the cross, Van?
Do you believe it to be the power of God?

Then you've been called, my friend...
You are a member of "them which are called".
You are not of "them that perish" ( the lost, or "them that perish". ).


Good afternoon to you, sir.

 

[Van]

1John 5:10 NET
(The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has testified concerning his Son.)

Here we see one factor God uses in crediting a person's faith as righteousness, they have at least some part of the gospel testimony in themselves. And by logical necessity, since they are the ones that believe into the Son of God, they were drawn by the Father, and based on their credited faith, were given to Christ. John 6:37

 

[Van]

Per 1 Corinthians 1:18, none of the lost have come to believe... SNIP

Again and again, verse after verse that refutes Calvinism is posted as if it supported Calvinism. Them that are perishing refers to those who have rejected the gospel. And what about Galatians 2:16 which plainly states the lost have come to believe.

On and on folks, one false assertion is made by Calvinism after another, and verse after verse is said to not mean what it says.

 

[Hark]

John 6:45

You do know that {SNIP} in the quote is offensive? You can snip my words but you cannot snip His words if you profess to serve Him by the scripture so you need to check your attitude at the door of Jesus Christ, brother. Snipping is uncalled for & certainly does not encourage me to listen to you as if you are serving Him out of Christ's love for me. Indeed, snipping suggests that you are not listening to me to see where I am coming from the scripture about, let alone the scripture that was provided that you had snipped as well from the quote.

2 Timothy 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Including your reference with mine.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. ~ KJV

That verse says nothing about the Holy Spirit but that they learned of the Father by how they come to Jesus. So you are only proving the truth that it is the Father that draws men unto the Son as the scripture says..

If you continue to snip, then I accept from the Lord that there can be no discussion between you & me since there will be no iron sharpening iron here by the Lord's grace & help for either one of us.

May God bless you & keep you. May He shine His face upon you & give you His Peace.

 

[Hark]

That means the opposite of Calvinism's bogus claim, see the NET translation.

I do not speak for nor defend Calvin. By His grace & by His help, I speak for Jesus Christ in seeking His glory. All reproofs should be addressing scripture. Not how outside sources apply them when scripture has been known to reprove outside sources

 

[Dave G]

You do know that {SNIP} in the quote is offensive? You can snip my words but you cannot snip His words if you profess to serve Him by the scripture so you need to check your attitude at the door of Jesus Christ, brother. Snipping is uncalled for & certainly does not encourage me to listen to you as if you are serving Him out of Christ's love for me. Indeed, snipping suggests that you are not listening to me to see where I am coming from the scripture about, let alone the scripture that was provided that you had snipped as well from the quote.

Based on prior interaction with Van,
My opinion is that addressing his behavior will probably do no good, Hark.
He doesn't seem to care if someone tries to correct him, biblically, on conduct.

Some have attempted to do so, and it seems each time they are met with a stonewall;
Instead of agreeing with someone who confronts him about it, he simply sidesteps the subject, accuses the other person of avoiding the thread topic, claims that our behavior is "non-germane", and keeps right on going.

To me, he simply fails to see that his conduct towards others, at times, is in any way offensive or objectionable.
"Snipping" isn't where it stops;
Use of terms like "false teacher", "bogus claims", "ludicrous", "ridiculous assertions", "complete rubbish", "false assertions", etc. always seem to be present in any thread where he disagrees with someone.

Apparently, how he addresses people is unimportant to him.
Here's a recent example:
1 Peter 2:24

That's why I've already determined that I should leave him to the Lord and to pray that He might show Van the Scriptures that pertain to our behavior as Christians.
Romans 12 comes to mind, as well as many others;
You've listed 2 Timothy 2:24-26, and I could also point out Titus 3:1-3.


To me, there's absolutely no reason that anyone on either "side" of any biblical discussion should not be patient and respectful towards the other.
It's the least that we can do after what the Lord has done for us.

 

[Hark]

Based on prior interaction with Van,
My opinion is that addressing his behavior will probably do no good, Hark.
He doesn't seem to care if someone tries to correct him, biblically, on conduct.

Some have attempted to do so, and it seems each time they are met with a stonewall;
Instead of agreeing with someone who confronts him about it, he simply sidesteps the subject, accuses the other person of avoiding the thread topic, claims that our behavior is "non-germane", and keeps right on going.

To me, he simply fails to see that his conduct towards others, at times, is in any way offensive or objectionable.
"Snipping" isn't where it stops;
Use of terms like "false teacher", "bogus claims", "ludicrous", "ridiculous assertions", "complete rubbish", "false assertions", etc. always seem to be present in any thread where he disagrees with someone.

Apparently, how he addresses people is unimportant to him.
Here's a recent example:
1 Peter 2:24

That's why I've already determined that I should leave him to the Lord and to pray that He might show Van the Scriptures that pertain to our behavior as Christians.
Romans 12 comes to mind, as well as many others;
You've listed 2 Timothy 2:24-26, and I could also point out Titus 3:1-3.


To me, there's absolutely no reason that anyone on either "side" of any biblical discussion should not be patient and respectful towards the other.
It's the least that we can do after what the Lord has done for us.

I agree. Even though it is on God to cause the increase, iron cannot sharpen iron unless each are open to correction from the Lord by the scriptures. I am looking to learn & be corrected since we all prophesy in part & know in part. Jesus did say that even the ones producing fruit, are pruned to bear more fruit. John 15:1-2 We never stop learning nor growing in the Lord till He brings us Home as perfect.

I can hope in the Lord for brother Van for I know I cannot convince him of anything. 1 Corinthians 3:5-7

Thank you for sharing.