Jesus, The Sin-Offering for the Whole World.

[Van]

Van, do you really know Greek grammar?

Note no acknowledgement of the answer provided, but yet another change the subject question. On and on folks, these defenders of obvious falsehoods offer deflection after deflection. Did the Calvinist admit the Greek word is a noun? Nope.
Did the Calvinist admit the result of changing the noun to a verb? Nope. Did the Calvinist try to change the subject from the inspired text? You bet.

 

[Van]

1 John 2:2 NASB
and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

He Himself refers to our Lord Jesus.
Is the propitiation refers to Jesus being the means of salvation.
For our sins refers to John's intended audience of born anew believers.
Jesus is also the means of salvation for the whole world, all humankind. Everyone God places into Christ spiritually is saved, and everyone not placed into Christ remains unsaved.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Note no acknowledgement of the answer provided, but yet another change the subject question. On and on folks, these defenders of obvious falsehoods offer deflection after deflection. Did the Calvinist admit the Greek word is a noun? Nope.
Did the Calvinist admit the result of changing the noun to a verb? Nope. Did the Calvinist try to change the subject from the inspired text? You bet.

Van. Here is a news flash. I am NOT a Calvinist or Reformed

 

[Van]

Van. Here is a news flash. I am NOT a Calvinist or Reformed

Why would anyone accept such a claim, will you state which points of the TULIP you disavow as false doctrine?

In my book, those that deny 1 John 2:2 teaches Christ is the means of salvation for all humankind are advocating limited atonement and are therefore Calvinists.

1 John 2:2 NASB
and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

He Himself refers to our Lord Jesus.
Is the propitiation refers to Jesus being the means of salvation.
For our sins refers to John's intended audience of born anew believers.
Jesus is also the means of salvation for the whole world, all humankind. Everyone God places into Christ spiritually is saved, and everyone not placed into Christ remains unsaved.

 

[Iconoclast]

Note this Calvinist claims the Greek noun (translated as salvation) is really a verb. Apparently truth does not matter to Calvinism.

Yes..we still remember that day your"greek" was exposed by Archangel

Yet another change the subject and never acknowledge the non-stop falsehoods posted by the advocates of Calvinism.
I have posted the apparent reason for changing the noun (salvation) into the verb (saved) at least a half dozen times.
It changes the structure of the sentence so rather than being chosen through faith in the truth, it can be claimed we were saved through faith in the truth, thus obscuring the conditional election being presented by the inspired text.

Conditional election....?
Man has nothing for your claim as being credited by God....Guilty sinners cannot commend themselves to God. Get in the game. Move away from sci fi theology.

 

[Van]

Yes..we still remember that day your"greek" was exposed by Archangel

Conditional election....?
Man has nothing for your claim as being credited by God....Guilty sinners cannot commend themselves to God. Get in the game. Move away from sci fi theology.

This poster makes false claims.
Conditional election is clearly and obvious taught by 2 Thessalonians 2:13, where individuals were chosen through or by reason of faith in the truth. So the Calvinists throw the kitchen sink as a smokescreed to hide the truth.

 

[SavedByGrace]

This poster makes false claims.
Conditional election is clearly and obvious taught by 2 Thessalonians 2:13, where individuals were chosen through or by reason of faith in the truth. So the Calvinists throw the kitchen sink as a smokescreed to hide the truth.

Salvation is conditional upon repentance and faith

 

[Van]

Van, do you really know Greek grammar?

I make no claim I have had any formal training in Creek grammar. But plenty of study tools, such as Blueletterbible provide parcing for the Greek words that appear in the text.

Thus if you go to BLB, you will find the Greek word is a noun.

And an independent confirming source is Scripture4All Greek Reverse Interlinear. Just click on 2 Thess. Chapter 2 and scroll down to verse 13. Again, the word is noun.

 

[Van]

Salvation is conditional upon repentance and faith

Did anyone say or suggest otherwise? When God credits our faith in Christ, whatever conditionals for that election have been satisfied. For example heartfelt faith from which full commitment and faithfulness will flow. And to be faithful requires turning from unfaithfulness as best we can. Hence, credited faith is faithful faith or faith from which faithfulness flows. Thus repentance is a component of faith and faith is a component of repentance, two sides of the same coin.

 

[AustinC]

Conditional election is clearly and obvious taught by 2 Thessalonians 2:13, where individuals were chosen through or by reason of faith in the truth.

Salvation is conditional upon repentance and faith

You two are married by your own form of Judaizer theology. You both teach salvation by merit, which is what Paul denounced regarding the teaching by Judaizers in the epistle to the Galatians.
The Judaizers also taught conditional salvation. As long as you cling to conditional salvation, you cannot say you are saved by grace. You cannot be saved by grace if your salvation is conditioned on something you must do. Moreso, such an attempt is what the Roman Catholic Church attempts when it adds merit to salvation. May I ask: Do you believe you must participate in the sacraments to maintain your salvation? Must you continue in perpetual repentance and faith so that you do not lose your earned status?

 

[SavedByGrace]

I make no claim I have had any formal training in Creek grammar. But plenty of study tools, such as Blueletterbible provide parcing for the Greek words that appear in the text.

Thus if you go to BLB, you will find the Greek word is a noun.

And an independent confirming source is Scripture4All Greek Reverse Interlinear. Just click on 2 Thess. Chapter 2 and scroll down to verse 13. Again, the word is noun.

These can be helpful but without actual knowledge of the grammar you can be wrong in what you say

 

[atpollard]

These can be helpful but without actual knowledge of the grammar you can be wrong in what you say

Heck, I have found people WITH formal training that still managed to be wrong in what they say.
(Just watch any academic debate).

 

[SavedByGrace]

Heck, I have found people WITH formal training that still managed to be wrong in what they say.
(Just watch any academic debate).

And what? Are you saying that knowledge of the original languages of the Bible is not an advantage? If you think that then you are very much mistaken

 

[atpollard]

And what? Are you saying that knowledge of the original languages of the Bible is not an advantage? If you think that then you are very much mistaken

I am thinking that your funny bone is broken: It was a joke (didn’t you see the emoji’s)?

However, since you felt the need to ask a serious question:
I believe that EDUCATION is very useful, but it does not guarantee that one is correct. (Appeal to Authority fallacy) There are many Doctors of Theology, throughout history, that have taught diverse heresies. Their letters do not make their errors, true.

 

[SavedByGrace]

I am thinking that your funny bone is broken: It was a joke (didn’t you see the emoji’s)?

However, since you felt the need to ask a serious question:
I believe that EDUCATION is very useful, but it does not guarantee that one is correct. (Appeal to Authority fallacy) There are many Doctors of Theology, throughout history, that have taught diverse heresies. Their letters do not make their errors, true.

Van has been on here many times making claims of both theology and Greek and posts stuff that is way off

 

[AustinC]

Van has been on here many times making claims of both theology and Greek and posts stuff that is way off

Pot, meet Kettle.

 

[Van]

You two are married by your own form of Judaizer theology. You both teach salvation by merit, which is what Paul denounced regarding the teaching by Judaizers in the epistle to the Galatians.
The Judaizers also taught conditional salvation. As long as you cling to conditional salvation, you cannot say you are saved by grace. You cannot be saved by grace if your salvation is conditioned on something you must do. Moreso, such an attempt is what the Roman Catholic Church attempts when it adds merit to salvation. May I ask: Do you believe you must participate in the sacraments to maintain your salvation? Must you continue in perpetual repentance and faith so that you do not lose your earned status?

Yet another you, you, you post presenting falsehood, as salvation through faith credited by God means our faith was not righteous before being declared righteous. This is all they have folks, falsehoods upon falsehoods.

They deny we are chosen for salvation through faith in the truth. So they deny inspired scripture to push man-made dogma.
And of course they suggest salvation must be sustained by works, which is false. Once saved, always saved.

 

[Van]

These can be helpful but without actual knowledge of the grammar you can be wrong in what you say

Yes, a source can be wrong, but in this case, with more than two independent sources saying the Greek word is a noun, and is translated as a noun in the NASB, LEB, NET, NKJV, that means dozens of scholars make the same claim. For you to suggest otherwise, and cast doubt on this fact is ludicrous. For example, how many interlinears with parcing say the word is a verb? Answer: zero.

Here is just one link:
2 Thessalonians 2:13 Interlinear: And we -- we ought to give thanks to God always for you, brethren, beloved by the Lord, that God did choose you from the beginning to salvation, in sanctification of the Spirit, and belief of the truth,

 

[SavedByGrace]

Yes, a source can be wrong, but in this case, with more than two independent sources saying the Greek word is a noun, and is translated as a noun in the NASB, LEB, NET, NKJV, that means dozens of scholars make the same claim. For you to suggest otherwise, and cast doubt on this fact is ludicrous. For example, how many interlinears with parcing say the word is a verb? Answer: zero.

Here is just one link:
2 Thessalonians 2:13 Interlinear: And we -- we ought to give thanks to God always for you, brethren, beloved by the Lord, that God did choose you from the beginning to salvation, in sanctification of the Spirit, and belief of the truth,

more to the point, exactly what are you trying to prove from this Greek?

 

[Van]

more to the point, exactly what are you trying to prove from this Greek?

Asked and answered. The word is a noun, thus we are chosen for salvation through or by reason of faith in the truth, a conditional election. I am not trying to prove this, I am just pointing to the verse and reading it. But I am not reading the NIV, ESV, or NLT as they mistranslate the verse to hide the fact that our election to salvation is conditional.

Did you click on the link and see that that source says the word is a noun? Just give me a yes or no.