Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Coming from the king of strawman arguments.....
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Do Calvinists Affirm Free Will then?
- Thread starter Yeshua1
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SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
Coming from the king of strawman arguments.....
at least I am a king and not a joker like you!
First, I have only read a few paragraphs of Calvin's writings so I am not a Calvinist in the strict sense.
I am a Christian who sees in the Bible that God chooses, therefore I believe that God chooses. I see that God elects, therefore I believe God elects. I see that God predestines, therefore I believe that God predestines.
I see that in many areas of my life, I have the capacity to choose, therefore, I believe I can choose. I also know that while I would like to choose anything I want, I know that this is not possible. I do not have the capacity.
For example, I may wish to choose to be an NBA basketball player who is the teams center. However, I don't have the capacity to choose that field of work. I am short and old. Even more so, I am not given the right to make that decision. Someone else is required to make that decision and so far, over all these years of wishing, no one has chosen me. I am not given that capacity to choose. I don't have the skills and the team owner hasn't chosen me.
God, as the Creator of all things, says that he determines the sheep from the goats. He chooses his sheep and gives them to Jesus who cares for the sheep. I can't do anything about it. It's not my right and I don't have the capacity to determine whether I get to be a sheep or a goat.
When I consider free-will, I consider what choice we are talking about. When discussing what I eat for dinner, I can pick from the options in my cupboard. When discussing my career as an NBA basketball player, I am at the mercy of the one more powerful than me to determine my fate. Sadly, my fate is to have a different career.
So it is with our salvation. My wickedness and wretchedness makes it impossible for me to choose to be a child of the King. I am at the mercy of the King. If He chooses to adopt me, I gain the inheritance of the Kingdom. If He chooses not to adopt me, I live out my life with no hope of the Kingdom. Will he graciously choose me or not? There is nothing I can offer Him that would prove my worthiness. My best is as if I was a filthy rag. I sit at his feet defeated by my sin. Dependent upon the King's choice. Will he extend grace or the sword? I tremble at the thought. Oh Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner.
Praise God, He has extended His amazing grace to me and given me faith to believe.
That's what I believe about free-will. I have no idea if Calvin saw it the same way.
I am a Christian who sees in the Bible that God chooses, therefore I believe that God chooses. I see that God elects, therefore I believe God elects. I see that God predestines, therefore I believe that God predestines.
I see that in many areas of my life, I have the capacity to choose, therefore, I believe I can choose. I also know that while I would like to choose anything I want, I know that this is not possible. I do not have the capacity.
For example, I may wish to choose to be an NBA basketball player who is the teams center. However, I don't have the capacity to choose that field of work. I am short and old. Even more so, I am not given the right to make that decision. Someone else is required to make that decision and so far, over all these years of wishing, no one has chosen me. I am not given that capacity to choose. I don't have the skills and the team owner hasn't chosen me.
God, as the Creator of all things, says that he determines the sheep from the goats. He chooses his sheep and gives them to Jesus who cares for the sheep. I can't do anything about it. It's not my right and I don't have the capacity to determine whether I get to be a sheep or a goat.
When I consider free-will, I consider what choice we are talking about. When discussing what I eat for dinner, I can pick from the options in my cupboard. When discussing my career as an NBA basketball player, I am at the mercy of the one more powerful than me to determine my fate. Sadly, my fate is to have a different career.
So it is with our salvation. My wickedness and wretchedness makes it impossible for me to choose to be a child of the King. I am at the mercy of the King. If He chooses to adopt me, I gain the inheritance of the Kingdom. If He chooses not to adopt me, I live out my life with no hope of the Kingdom. Will he graciously choose me or not? There is nothing I can offer Him that would prove my worthiness. My best is as if I was a filthy rag. I sit at his feet defeated by my sin. Dependent upon the King's choice. Will he extend grace or the sword? I tremble at the thought. Oh Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner.
Praise God, He has extended His amazing grace to me and given me faith to believe.
That's what I believe about free-will. I have no idea if Calvin saw it the same way.
Good for you....of course that’s conserving your salvation right...and if so then I agree
A good tree cannot bring forth corrupt fruit, and neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. The will is not free.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Again, it depends on what you are talking about when you say "free will."
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
then the Holy Bible is NOT Inerrant!
According to the Most Holy of Sacred Texts of Almighty God in the Heaven of Heavens Most High...
^ That's how @SavedByGrace talks--lots empty, swollen words ^
Anyway, according to the Scriptures, can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit? Why or why not?
^ That's how @SavedByGrace talks--lots empty, swollen words ^
Anyway, according to the Scriptures, can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit? Why or why not?
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
You don't know what you are talking about
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
Interesting that the OP mentions Martin Luther but doesn't produce any Bible evidence for what he says. Pretty much how the reformed do things
Answer the question.
While you're at it, answer the question you avoided here Romans 9 and Reformed Error
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
check there #20
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
after a lot of huffing and puffing, the Calvinists/Reformed here have told us NOTHING about whether the Bible says that every human being has a "free will", or not!
I have a couple of points that I would like to make
firstly, if humans are born without the freedom to choose between good and evil, right and wrong. Then this makes them non responsible for thier actions. If, as it is said, that the will of all the non-elect, sinners, are "bound", then who does this "binding"? If by God, then God becomes the author of sins, and ceases to be God. If by the devil, then how does the devil do this in the human being? does he have the power to render the will of each human being, bound to him, from the womb? When a person sins, like murders, rapes, adultery, fornication, steals, lies, etc, etc, then they cannot be punished by the Just God for the Bible, as their wills are not free for them to make a choice, as they would be "compelled" by an outside force, like God, or the devil, to simply carry out what they "cause" them to do! If they are punished for doing something that they have no "control" over, then this makes God to be unjust! Which is anathema!
secondly, if the will of the non-elect has been "bound", so that they cannot "seek the Lord" for their salvation, then, again, as I have shown above, they are not "responsible" for their unbelief, as they CANNOT turn to the Lord for salvation. Then, Bible verses like John 3:18, "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.", and 3:36, "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him". Are unjust, as God says that He is going to punish these for "unbelief", and "disobedience", which they are NOT responsible for, as they are "bound" by an outside force, perventing them from "believing and obeying". And, since God gives "saving faith" to only those He has "called", which are the "elect", then, to damn these for not "believing and obeying", which they are not "able" to in the first place, makes God to be unjust!
How can any person be punished for actions that they are not responsible for? How can a person who murders someone, whose "will" has been "bound", be punished for their crime? How can God send anyone to eternal punishment, if they could not "choose" whether to follow the Lord or not; or, that the Lord has no interest in their salvation? This makes God to be very unfair, and not the God as shown in the Holy Bible!
I have a couple of points that I would like to make
firstly, if humans are born without the freedom to choose between good and evil, right and wrong. Then this makes them non responsible for thier actions. If, as it is said, that the will of all the non-elect, sinners, are "bound", then who does this "binding"? If by God, then God becomes the author of sins, and ceases to be God. If by the devil, then how does the devil do this in the human being? does he have the power to render the will of each human being, bound to him, from the womb? When a person sins, like murders, rapes, adultery, fornication, steals, lies, etc, etc, then they cannot be punished by the Just God for the Bible, as their wills are not free for them to make a choice, as they would be "compelled" by an outside force, like God, or the devil, to simply carry out what they "cause" them to do! If they are punished for doing something that they have no "control" over, then this makes God to be unjust! Which is anathema!
secondly, if the will of the non-elect has been "bound", so that they cannot "seek the Lord" for their salvation, then, again, as I have shown above, they are not "responsible" for their unbelief, as they CANNOT turn to the Lord for salvation. Then, Bible verses like John 3:18, "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.", and 3:36, "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him". Are unjust, as God says that He is going to punish these for "unbelief", and "disobedience", which they are NOT responsible for, as they are "bound" by an outside force, perventing them from "believing and obeying". And, since God gives "saving faith" to only those He has "called", which are the "elect", then, to damn these for not "believing and obeying", which they are not "able" to in the first place, makes God to be unjust!
How can any person be punished for actions that they are not responsible for? How can a person who murders someone, whose "will" has been "bound", be punished for their crime? How can God send anyone to eternal punishment, if they could not "choose" whether to follow the Lord or not; or, that the Lord has no interest in their salvation? This makes God to be very unfair, and not the God as shown in the Holy Bible!
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
problem is, that you cannot grasp my reply! I can't make it any easier, as we are dealing with deep theology. Pray about it!
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
take a look at #34
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
??? Where does the Bible say that the will is free? You can't see past your blinders...
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
read #34 and you just might learn. if not, then feel free to refute what I have written
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
A few questions. Are we born with sin or not? Can anyone live a perfect life? Your post seems to suggest that we are sinless when we are born and we can choose to be perfect.
You get stuck on the word bound. We are bound by our sin. We don't seek the Lord because we do not want to. Nobody seeks after God. Do you believe that? That is exactly what the Bible says.
You are not coming at this topic biblically. Rather you are trying to inject human reasoning and ignoring the Scripture.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
what does the Bible mean, when it specifies of young children;
Deuteronomy 1:39
And as for your little ones, who you said would become a prey, and your children, who today have no knowledge of good or evil, they shall go in there. And to them I will give it, and they shall possess it.
Isaiah 7:15-16
He shall eat curds and honey when he knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good. For before the boy knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land whose two kings you dread will be deserted.
Jonah 4:11
And should not I pity Nineveh, that great city, in which there are more than 120,000 persons who do not know their right hand from their left, and also much cattle?”
Romans 9:11
though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad
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