Brief Analysis of Romans 9:11.

[37818]

Romans 9:11, "(For the children being not yet born, neither practiced any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )"

 

[SavedByGrace]

Romans 9:11, "(For the children being not yet born, neither practiced any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )"

So where is your analysis???

 

[Reformed1689]

I'm not sure of the purpose of this thread....

 

[37818]

So where is your analysis???

". . . practiced . . ." as opposed to merely ". . . having done . . ." Romans 9:11 does not teach they were sinless.

 

[37818]

I'm not sure of the purpose of this thread....

To refute the notion that childern not yet born are sinless. Against Paganism.

 

[Van]

So on the one hand all humans are conceived as "sinners" Romans 5:19, even though they have done nothing good or bad.
So the obvious question is what is the meaning of "made sinners" if they have not sinned? A "sinner" goes into a separated from our Holy God, state, with complete inability, by their own efforts, to reunite with God. All our works of righteousness are as filthy rags.

 

[37818]

. . . even though they have done nothing good or bad.

Romans 9:11 teaches no such thing.

. . . all humans are conceived as "sinners" Romans 5:19, . . .

Adam and Eve upon eating was a sin for what was eaten gave them that sinful nature. When we are conceived we are conceived with that very nature, having it is a sin in and of itself. Romans 3:23.

 

[Van]

Romans 9:11 teaches no such thing.
Adam and Eve upon eating was a sin for what was eaten gave them that sinful nature. When we are conceived we are conceived with that very nature, having it is a sin in and of itself. Romans 3:23.

So on the one hand all humans are conceived as "sinners" Romans 5:19, even though they have done nothing good or bad.
So the obvious question is what is the meaning of "made sinners" if they have not sinned? A "sinner" goes into a separated from our Holy God, state, with complete inability, by their own efforts, to reunite with God. All our works of righteousness are as filthy rags.

Several verses suggest early in life we are not able to sin, not knowing our right hand from our left. Thus there is no support that early in life we sin.

And yes I agree being "made sinners" includes the corruption of the fall, being predisposed to sin. But being "sinners" must include the separation penalty, otherwise we would be made "potential sinners."

 

[Iconoclast]

So on the one hand all humans are conceived as "sinners" Romans 5:19, even though they have done nothing good or bad.
So the obvious question is what is the meaning of "made sinners" if they have not sinned? A "sinner" goes into a separated from our Holy God, state, with complete inability, by their own efforts, to reunite with God. All our works of righteousness are as filthy rags.

Several verses suggest early in life we are not able to sin, not knowing our right hand from our left. Thus there is no support that early in life we sin.

This misunderstanding is a direct denial of scripture whis is shouting out that a tsunami of error is going to follow.All sinned at one point in time.Statements that intentionally resist Rom3:23 give evidence of the fact of the horrific effect of the sin being passed on at conception.

 

[37818]

. . . even though they have done nothing good or bad.

Repeating a falsehood does not make it true.
Romans 9:11, "(For the children being not yet born, neither practiced [not singular but plural] any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )"

 

[Van]

This misunderstanding is a direct denial of scripture whis is shouting out that a tsunami of error is going to follow.All sinned at one point in time.Statements that intentionally resist Rom3:23 give evidence of the fact of the horrific effect of the sin being passed on at conception.

Yet another "taint so" post, devoid of any evidence that early in life humans have done nothing good or evil. "all sinned" refers to all able to sin. The unwarranted expansion results in conflict with Romans 9:11.

 

[Van]

Repeating a falsehood does not make it true.
Romans 9:11, "(For the children being not yet born, neither practiced [not singular but plural] any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth"

Repeating falsehood does indeed not make it true. For example claiming not practicing any evil could be interpreted as performing a single evil. An absurd agenda driven interpretation.

 

[37818]

Repeating falsehood does indeed not make it true. For example claiming not practicing any evil could be interpreted as performing a single evil. An absurd agenda driven interpretation.

What is your point? Do you deny that children not yet born are sinners in and of them selves?

 

[percho]

And the serpent hath been subtile above every beast of the field which Jehovah God hath made, and he saith unto the woman, 'Is it true that God hath said, Ye do not eat of every tree of the garden?' And the woman saith unto the serpent, 'Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we do eat, and of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden God hath said, Ye do not eat of it, nor touch it, lest ye die.' And the serpent saith unto the woman, 'Dying, ye do not die, for God doth know that in the day of your eating of it -- your eyes have been opened, and ye have been as God, knowing good and evil.'

And the woman seeth that the tree is good for food, and that it is pleasant to the eyes, and the tree is desirable to make one wise, and she taketh of its fruit and eateth, and giveth also to her husband with her, and he doth eat; Gen 3:1-6 YLT

1 John 3:8 KJV He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

First part of Gal 3:22 ESV But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, ------- Was that necessary in order for the following to be fulfilled? --- For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.


All's thoughts. Had the devil done any works upon the earth prior to his deception of Eve? Did God create, male and female Adam, in his image for the very purpose of destroying the works of the devil?

YLT Rom 9:11 (for they being not yet born, neither having done anything good or evil (See, Gen 3:6 for God doth know that in the day of your eating of it -- your eyes have been opened, and ye have been as God, knowing good and evil.') , that the purpose of God, according to choice, might remain; not of works, but of Him who is calling,) it was said to her --

 

[Iconoclast]

Van,

Yet another "taint so" post, devoid of any evidence that early in life humans have done nothing good or evil. "all sinned" refers to all able to sin.

\Strangely this poster believes he can add to the text of scripture as if the biblical writers needed help

The only thing that's taint so, is your bogus suggestion all sinned really means is able to
The text is aorist tense...meaning all sinned at one point in the past.ALL sinned in Adam...your denial and strange fire does not change it.

 

[Alan Gross]

God's Election was not based on whether an individual soul had ever sinned, because, when He Chose them, they had not.

God's Election of souls was Unconditional.

This is what is known as "sound Doctrine", or, "The Truth".

God, also, Chooses some souls to Give them the Understanding of "The Ways of God", and "Manifold Wisdom", and some, He Has Not.

 

[Van]

What is your point? Do you deny that children not yet born are sinners in and of them selves?

I made my point. You are the naysayer pushing absurd interpretation of Romans 9:11.

 

[Van]

Van,
\Strangely this poster believes he can add to the text of scripture as if the biblical writers needed help

The only thing that's taint so, is your bogus suggestion all sinned really means is able to
The text is aorist tense...meaning all sinned at one point in the past.ALL sinned in Adam...your denial and strange fire does not change it.

Romans 3:23 says "all" sinned. Does the "all" refer to all humans able to sin, thus excluding the feeble-minded and those early in life that do not know their right hand from their left? I think so. OTOH, to be made sinners, must include the feeble-minded and those early in life, because that is how they were made.

Is the fact that "sinned" in the Greek is "Aorist" verb tense, something that has been done germane? Nope. All of the group have sinned, the issue is who is in the group.

Does scripture say "all sinned in Adam?" Nope

Calvinism adds to the text of scripture non-stop, and is therefore "strange fire!"

 

[37818]

I made my point. You are the naysayer pushing absurd interpretation of Romans 9:11.

So are you denying πραξαντων means "practised" and not merely "havind done" in Romans 9:11?

 

[Van]

So are you denying πραξαντων means "practised" and not merely "having done" in Romans 9:11?

My post is clear, your feigned stupidity is not helpful.

The Greek word has a range of meanings, and according to Strong's, the idea refers to something that has (not) been accomplished. Thus those early in life have not collected any wrath.