Christians in Politics pt 2

[JonC]

@Yeshua1

The bottom line is that I believe (and have said) that if you believe God has given you the duty to vote, that it is God's will for you to be involved in politics, then you should vote and be involved in politics. I said I believe that God's will is for me to abstain from voting and to abstain from politics.

I enjoy learning about the reasons people believe as they do. I expect and hope people will strongly voice, back up, and support their positions. I also believe that I can express my beliefs just as strongly even if they oppose yours.

Why do you believe that I should vote, that I should be involved in politics, even when I believe that for me to do so would be a sin?

 

[Yeshua1]

Sure. I am pretty sure Germans are thankful that they are born in Germany. Citizens of the UK, that they were born there. Of Canada, that they were born there.

But we are not speaking about being thankful for the countries in which we were born.

You made some unsubstantiated claims.

You said that voting was a duty, but you have not provided anything from the U.S. Constitution stating that citizens have the duty to vote.

You said that people have died for our "right to vote", but you have not said who died, much less fought, so that Americans could vote or that people fought to make sure that we did not have the right to abstain from voting.

So all of those soldiers who fought say in WW !! to keep us from becoming part of the Hitler Empire were wrong of they were christians?

 

[Yeshua1]

@Yeshua1

The bottom line is that I believe (and have said) that if you believe God has given you the duty to vote, that it is God's will for you to be involved in politics, then you should vote and be involved in politics. I said I believe that God's will is for me to abstain from voting and to abstain from politics.

I enjoy learning about the reasons people believe as they do. I expect and hope people will strongly voice, back up, and support their positions. I also believe that I can express my beliefs just as strongly even if they oppose yours.

Why do you believe that I should vote, that I should be involved in politics, even when I believe that for me to do so would be a sin?

I do n ot advocate you to do anyhting that would be against your personal convictions, but you so seem to lump all of us who are against your views as not practicing Christianity correctly!

 

[JonC]

So all of those soldiers who fought say in WW !! to keep us from becoming part of the Hitler Empire were wrong of they were christians?

I do not know. The early church would say that they were wrong. They expected soldiers to stop serving if possible when they were saved. But I am a retired soldier, so I did serve in the military.

Since that is not something that I am facing it would be inappropriate for me to decide if another person should or should not serve in the military.

I will note that while I served in the military I never assumed a political role (I did not care much about politics for most of my service). I was a Combat Engineer and went out with tankers, but my role was force protection (I was not in an offensive position) so the situation did not come up for me. It could have very easily arisen as I was deployed several times.

Do you believe that people have a duty to serve in the military?

 

[JonC]

I do n ot advocate you to do anyhting that would be against your personal convictions, but you so seem to lump all of us who are against your views as not practicing Christianity correctly!

I do not know if you are practicing Christianity correctly or not. That is between you and God.

My view is that political involvement equates to disobedience (I do believe that you, if you are involved in politics, have divided loyalties and would be better off using your voice in the church rather than in politics). So I would classify your position as anti-Christian.

But so what? You consider those who preach free-will to be preaching false doctrine. You considered me, as a Christian, to be neglecting my "duty" by not voting (even though it would be against my belief).

Christians do not have to believe other Christians are perfect, or that they hold perfect beliefs. Our beliefs on these issues is not what makes us Christian. But I hope that each of us at least believe that our beliefs are correct, whatever they are at a given time.

 

[Yeshua1]

I do not know. The early church would say that they were wrong. They expected soldiers to stop serving if possible when they were saved. But I am a retired soldier, so I did serve in the military.

Since that is not something that I am facing it would be inappropriate for me to decide if another person should or should not serve in the military.

I will note that while I served in the military I never assumed a political role (I did not care much about politics for most of my service). I was a Combat Engineer and went out with tankers, but my role was force protection (I was not in an offensive position) so the situation did not come up for me. It could have very easily arisen as I was deployed several times.

Do you believe that people have a duty to serve in the military?

if called upon like in WW 2, yes, and John the Baptist never told soldiers to stop being in the army, nor did Lord Jesus!

 

[Yeshua1]

I do not know if you are practicing Christianity correctly or not. That is between you and God.

My view is that political involvement equates to disobedience (I do believe that you, if you are involved in politics, have divided loyalties and would be better off using your voice in the church rather than in politics). So I would classify your position as anti-Christian.

But so what? You consider those who preach free-will to be preaching false doctrine. You considered me, as a Christian, to be neglecting my "duty" by not voting (even though it would be against my belief).

Christians do not have to believe other Christians are perfect, or that they hold perfect beliefs. Our beliefs on these issues is not what makes us Christian. But I hope that each of us at least believe that our beliefs are correct, whatever they are at a given time.

You seem though to be going beyond allowing others to hold differing views, but equate your views as being the correct ones to hold!

 

[JonC]

You seem though to be going beyond allowing others to hold differing views, but equate your views as being the correct ones to hold!

Do you believe your view is correct?

 

[JonC]

if called upon like in WW 2, yes, and John the Baptist never told soldiers to stop being in the army, nor did Lord Jesus!

That is up to the individual, not me. We cannot argue from silence.

And why WW2. You realize we did not enter WW2 because of the Nazis...correct?

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

…If anyone be a soldier or in authority, let him be taught not to oppress or to kill or to rob, or to be angry or to rage and afflict anyone. But let those rations suffice him which are given to him. But if they wish to be baptized in the Lord, let them cease from military service or from the authority, and if not let them not be received. – Testament of our Lord (Cadoux The Early Christian Attitude to War p. 121-126)

That is going far too far. As a rule, it is unbiblical.

“Righteousness exalteth a nation: but sin is a reproach to any people.”—Proverbs 14:34

God spoke to nations through the prophets of old. God even chose men and women from among his own people for special government service in some foreign nations, not just Israel and Judah. There is no biblical indication that God has ceased his interest in earthly kingdoms, or that his people should no longer have even important functions within those governments.

The closest we come to finding any such indication involves those who hold special church office, for example, Paul’s note to the evangelist Timothy.

Furthermore, all indications are that converts would retain their government posts.

Tax collector—Zaccheus (Luke 19:1-10).

Centurion—Cornelius (Acts 10).

Proconsul—Sergius Paulus (Acts 13:6-12).

Royal treasurer—Ethiopian eunuch (Acts 8:26ff).

Prison overseer—Philippian jailer (Acts 16:16ff).

Tax collectors and soldiers—pentitent inquirers of John the Baptist (Luke 3:7-14).​

Note that the latter is even in the context of producing good fruit in keeping with repentance.

There is no biblical support for forbidding Christian involvement in government service to whatever degree is available. That later Christians fell into such a practice does not legitimize it. Infant baptism has more support.

This is not to say that one cannot imagine exceptions, for example, where the state requires a believer to swear allegiance to it above God.

“Righteousness exalteth a nation: but sin is a reproach to any people.”—Proverbs 14:34

 

[JonC]

That is going far too far. As a rule, it is unbiblical.

“Righteousness exalteth a nation: but sin is a reproach to any people.”—Proverbs 14:34

God spoke to nations through the prophets of old. God even chose men and women from among his own people for special government service in some foreign nations, not just Israel and Judah. There is no biblical indication that God has ceased his interest in earthly kingdoms, or that his people should no longer have even important functions within those governments.

The closest we come to finding any such indication involves those who hold special church office, for example, Paul’s note to the evangelist Timothy.

Furthermore, all indications are that converts would retain their government posts.

Tax collector—Zaccheus (Luke 19:1-10).

Centurion—Cornelius (Acts 10).

Proconsul—Sergius Paulus (Acts 13:6-12).

Royal treasurer—Ethiopian eunuch (Acts 8:26ff).

Prison overseer—Philippian jailer (Acts 16:16ff).

Tax collectors and soldiers—pentitent inquirers of John the Baptist (Luke 3:7-14).​

Note that the latter is even in the context of producing good fruit in keeping with repentance.

There is no biblical support for forbidding Christian involvement in government service to whatever degree is available. That later Christians fell into such a practice does not legitimize it. Infant baptism has more support.

This is not to say that one cannot imagine exceptions, for example, where the state requires a believer to swear allegiance to it above God.

“Righteousness exalteth a nation: but sin is a reproach to any people.”—Proverbs 14:34

Could be going too far. That was the early church, not mainstream Christianity today.

I do not know of a passage telling people it is OK to be a tax collector, soldier, etc., but I agree many were saved.

That is why I say it is an individual decision, but one that should also be taken seriously.

 

[Quantrill]

Yes, there are vocations (like prostitution, the porn industry, cult leaders, etc.) that are un-Christian.

But your insistance that saying one vocation is wrong is to say all vocations are wrong is a faulty logic.

Saying Christians should not be involved vocationally in the porn industry does not mean Christians should not be involved in another vocation (like plumbing).

The reason I believe Christians should not be involved in secular politics has nothing to do with vocation. It has to do with the nature of vocations applied to a specific context.

There is nothing wrong with a Christian bring a photographer. There is a lot wrong with a Christian photographer becoming involved with the porn industry.

There is nothing wrong with a Christian being involved in the affairs of the Church, the ministry of the gospel, holding a leadership position in the congregation, etc. There is a lot wrong by assuming those roles in the affairs of the World.

Thus is not mere opinion. It was the position of the church for centuries. Antiquity does not prove the position correct, but it does prove it a biblically based position and a legitimate interpretation.

Paul tells us not to judge those outside the church. You say there is nothing wrong with judging those outside the church.

Christ said the World is opposed to God, is already condemned, is fading, and is something we are called out from. You say it is fine to engage in the affairs of the world.

Peter said we are to be separated from the world, to exist as a holy people. You say we are to engage the world by becoming a part of the world system.

Jesus said that those who become caught up in the affairs of the world will perish. You say we are called to be a part of worldly affairs.

The credible reasons are there, you just cannot see them. Your position is not only mere opinion, it is justification for active rebellion against God - not because I am right and you are wrong but because you fail to even engage those passages.

You just put the blind eye to the scope and complain you cannot see.

What smoke. You're the one saying one vocation is wrong as you are saying being in politics in wrong.

Just because one is involved in politics doesn't make them wrong. Therefore a Christian can be involved in politics and not be wrong. Just like a plumber can plumb in the world and not be wrong.

As I said, and showed, your analogy is amiss. And your position is equally amiss.

Quantrill

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

Could be going too far. That was the early church, not mainstream Christianity today.

I do not know of a passage telling people it is OK to be a tax collector, soldier, etc., but I agree many were saved.

That is why I say it is an individual decision, but one that should also be taken seriously.

Yes, it could be going too far, and in fact is going too far.

Early church perhaps, but not earliest church. The Bible is our best basis for such matters.

If it is an individual decision, then how can the church be justified in making that decision instead of the individual?

 

[JonC]

What smoke. You're the one saying one vocation is wrong as you are saying being in politics in wrong.

Just because one is involved in politics doesn't make them wrong. Therefore a Christian can be involved in politics and not be wrong. Just like a plumber can plumb in the world and not be wrong.

As I said, and showed, your analogy is amiss. And your position is equally amiss.

Quantrill

There are specific vocations that are wrong for Christians.

You deny it, but it is wrong to be an abortion provider (it is murder). It is wrong to be a phorn photographer. It is wrong to be the owner of an adult book store.

I never said Christians cannot be in the World. I never said Christians cannot have a voice in political issues.

I said the voice of the Christian us the Church, not the world.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

…I do not know of a passage telling people it is OK to be a tax collector, soldier, etc., but I agree many were saved….

That the fiery prophet John the Baptist told the soldiers and tax collectors what to do in keeping with repentance and it included continuing to be soldiers and tax collectors seems to be a rather clear OK.

And the other examples show no indication that resignation would be expected, certainly not demanded. That is simply an unbiblical notion.

 

[JonC]

Yes, it could be going too far, and in fact is going too far.

Early church perhaps, but not earliest church. The Bible is our best basis for such matters.

If it is an individual decision, then how can the church be justified in making that decision instead of the individual?

The earliest church as well (perhaps by necessity).

I do not think the Church can make the decision for an individual. A church can decide who will be in good standing with the congregation, but not with Christ.

 

[JonC]

That the fiery prophet John the Baptist told the soldiers and tax collectors what to do in keeping with repentance and it included continuing to be soldiers and tax collectors seems to be a rather clear OK.

And the other examples show no indication that resignation would be expected, certainly not demanded. That is simply an unbiblical notion.

Yes. I talked about this a few weeks ago (about John the Baptist). Of course, John was describing repentance and not instructing folks on the Christian life.

I personally think it is going too far, but it is a legitimate interpretation of Scripture. How can one be a secular judge and not judge those in the secular world? How can one be a soldier and live at peace with all men, loving their enemies as themselves, living quiet lives, etc.?

I suppose those were the types of questions they were asking.

To be fair, even though I do not fully hold their views, they did have much better support for their positions than those in opposition have voiced on this thread.

 

[Quantrill]

There are specific vocations that are wrong for Christians.

You deny it, but it is wrong to be an abortion provider (it is murder). It is wrong to be a phorn photographer. It is wrong to be the owner of an adult book store.

I never said Christians cannot be in the World. I never said Christians cannot have a voice in political issues.

I said the voice of the Christian us the Church, not the world.

Yes, I know what you said. You said it is wrong for a Christian to be in politics unless it is church politics. The only one 'wrong' here is you. As has been shown.

You attempted, but not successfully, to equate politics with porn or some other moral wrong. No amount of smoke will cover it up.

Point being, Christians should be involved in politics.

Quantrill

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I agree with the GOP platform (so far, anyway). And I agree with conservative values.

You and I probably have the same set of values (I suspect @SGO does as well).

So my question is why you vote conservative, that is, to what end? Why support a conservative political party?

Please define Conservative.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Yes, I know what you said. You said it is wrong for a Christian to be in politics unless it is church politics. The only one 'wrong' here is you. As has been shown.

You attempted, but not successfully, to equate politics with porn or some other moral wrong. No amount of smoke will cover it up.

Point being, Christians should be involved in politics.

Quantrill

Yea, your point. Others believe in the separation of Church and State.