Scripture More Accurately
Well-Known Member
Is there instrumental music that displeases God? If so, what do we know about such music?
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Is There Instrumental Music that Displeases God?
- Thread starter Scripture More Accurately
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Scripture More Accurately
Well-Known Member
Scripture provides several passages about the activities of sinful people that included the playing of musical instruments. What should we believe that these passages teach us about instrumental music that displeases God?
Scripture More Accurately
Well-Known Member
For anyone who might be wondering, this poll is very similar to a previous one (What Do You Believe about Instrumental Music?), but I am wanting to discuss one specific aspect of the same general subject in a more focused way in this thread.
Also that previous thread is now closed so this thread provides the opportunity for further discussion.
Also that previous thread is now closed so this thread provides the opportunity for further discussion.
Scripture More Accurately
Well-Known Member
A good passage to examine about this question:
Isaiah 5:11 Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till wine inflame them!
12 And the harp, and the viol, the tabret, and pipe, and wine, are in their feasts: but they regard not the work of the LORD, neither consider the operation of his hands.
13 Therefore my people are gone into captivity, because they have no knowledge: and their honourable men are famished, and their multitude dried up with thirst. 14 Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.
15 And the mean man shall be brought down, and the mighty man shall be humbled, and the eyes of the lofty shall be humbled: 16 But the LORD of hosts shall be exalted in judgment, and God that is holy shall be sanctified in righteousness. 17 Then shall the lambs feed after their manner, and the waste places of the fat ones shall strangers eat.
Isaiah 5:11 Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till wine inflame them!
12 And the harp, and the viol, the tabret, and pipe, and wine, are in their feasts: but they regard not the work of the LORD, neither consider the operation of his hands.
13 Therefore my people are gone into captivity, because they have no knowledge: and their honourable men are famished, and their multitude dried up with thirst. 14 Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.
15 And the mean man shall be brought down, and the mighty man shall be humbled, and the eyes of the lofty shall be humbled: 16 But the LORD of hosts shall be exalted in judgment, and God that is holy shall be sanctified in righteousness. 17 Then shall the lambs feed after their manner, and the waste places of the fat ones shall strangers eat.
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That sinful people cannot please God?
Scripture More Accurately
Well-Known Member
We have much Scripture that teaches us that sinful people have not pleased God. Whether or not any instrumental music that they have produced has displeased God is what I am wanting to discuss.
Probing the passage in Isaiah 5 that I posted above is a good way to pursue this topic further biblically.
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Scripture More Accurately
Well-Known Member
When God pronounces a woe on people, we know that He has expressed His extreme displeasure with them.
These wicked people had evil intent and purpose to what they were doing. They began early in the morning to consume alcohol in excessive quantities and did so until it inflamed them.
These people were not merely "social" drinkers. They were people who were routinely intoxicated by alcohol. Such people were not in any sense controlled by the Spirit, walking in the Spirit, and having His fruit in their lives, and thus they were indulging their flesh maximally.
They were not pleasing God by what they were doing. Moreover, they had no intent to do so. They were not seeking to please Him in any way and were disregarding His works and His ways:
These people had instrumental music in their drunken feasts in which they were not mindful of God. God spoke of His destruction of their pomp and sinful rejoicing in such drunken feasts that featured instrumental music:
Isaiah 5:11 Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till wine inflame them!
These wicked people had evil intent and purpose to what they were doing. They began early in the morning to consume alcohol in excessive quantities and did so until it inflamed them.
These people were not merely "social" drinkers. They were people who were routinely intoxicated by alcohol. Such people were not in any sense controlled by the Spirit, walking in the Spirit, and having His fruit in their lives, and thus they were indulging their flesh maximally.
They were not pleasing God by what they were doing. Moreover, they had no intent to do so. They were not seeking to please Him in any way and were disregarding His works and His ways:
12 And the harp, and the viol, the tabret, and pipe, and wine, are in their feasts: but they regard not the work of the LORD, neither consider the operation of his hands.
These people had instrumental music in their drunken feasts in which they were not mindful of God. God spoke of His destruction of their pomp and sinful rejoicing in such drunken feasts that featured instrumental music:
13 Therefore my people are gone into captivity, because they have no knowledge: and their honourable men are famished, and their multitude dried up with thirst. 14 Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.
15 And the mean man shall be brought down, and the mighty man shall be humbled, and the eyes of the lofty shall be humbled: 16 But the LORD of hosts shall be exalted in judgment, and God that is holy shall be sanctified in righteousness. 17 Then shall the lambs feed after their manner, and the waste places of the fat ones shall strangers eat.
What should we believe about the instrumental music played in their drunken feasts? Was the music itself still pleasing to God when we know that they had no intent to please Him in any way in their exceedingly wicked activities and lives?15 And the mean man shall be brought down, and the mighty man shall be humbled, and the eyes of the lofty shall be humbled: 16 But the LORD of hosts shall be exalted in judgment, and God that is holy shall be sanctified in righteousness. 17 Then shall the lambs feed after their manner, and the waste places of the fat ones shall strangers eat.
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I would say that it does displease God. The reason is music is at its very basic an expression. So replace music with expression. Is God pleased by the expressions of the unrighteous?
Scripture More Accurately
Well-Known Member
I agree that it does displease God. Many believers, however, deny that any instrumental music itself is displeasing to God. They hold that music is "just music," that it is all neutral or amoral or inherently good. These differing views are widely held, but I do not find any Bible to support any of them.
Where is it stated that the music played was composed for these feasts?
Could not the tunes been from the general culture, like from the top 40?
Aren't there hymns we sing today whose music comes from barroom songs?
Therefore since the origin of the music, minus the lyrics, came from people who were not sober, is it evil?
Could not the tunes been from the general culture, like from the top 40?
Aren't there hymns we sing today whose music comes from barroom songs?
Therefore since the origin of the music, minus the lyrics, came from people who were not sober, is it evil?
Scripture More Accurately
Well-Known Member
The passage does not specify any information about the instrumental music that was played.
No, there are not hymns we sing today whose music comes from barroom songs. That claim is not true.
A person who is drunk cannot do anything that pleases God in his drunken state, including composing or playing music that pleases God.
Also, the passage does not specify, but it likely implies that those playing the music were similarly disregarding God as were those for whom they were playing.
What comes to mind from the secular to the spiritual is What Child is This? from Greensleeves.
From an article:
"... I intentionally used “tavern/drinking songs” in my description of the mythstory so as to not fall into the semantic trap myself. However, in the more common version of the myth the term used is “bar songs” or “bar tunes.”
This might seem quibbling, but it’s actually quite important since writers like Luther did indeed use “bar tunes” in their compositions. But sometimes univocation can strike back.
It is true, Luther did use bar tunes. It is crucial to note, however, that the term “bar tune” (more commonly referred to as “bar from”) is simply musical terminology referring to a specific musical form. In bar form, there are two similar or identical musical lines followed by a contrasting one, taking the form of AAB or sometimes AABA).
For example, A Mighty Fortress employs a variation of this form:
A: A mighty Fortress is our God,
A trusty Shield and Weapon;
A: He helps us free from every need
That hath us now o’ertaken.
B: The old evil Foe
Now means deadly woe;
Deep guile and great might
Are his dread arms in fight;
A’: On Earth is not his equal.
The secular/sacred dichotomy that makes sense to post-moderns once again makes things difficult here, for in Luther’s time
stylistically there is very little difference between a German popular song in the sixteenth century, a sacred Protestant chorale and a Leise. (Rebecca Wagner Oettinger, Music as Propaganda in the German Reformation, p. 25)
Due to the lack of distinction between the sacred and the secular in music in the late medieval period, often the people writing music for sacred texts were the same ones writing for “secular” texts. And given the enormous influence that the church had on culture in the medieval period, the result is that folk culture was more influenced by the church than the other way around:..."
Christian Mythstory: Hymns and Drinking Songs – deviantmonk
Images of spiritual music from secular tunes:
hymns from secular tunes - Bing images
"A person who is drunk cannot do anything that pleases God in his drunken state, including composing or playing music that pleases God."
The scripture states: be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess, but be filled with the Spirit; Ephesians 5:18
And elsewhere it says that those habitually drink, that is, drunkards, shall not be allowed into the kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 6:10). But show the scripture that says nothing good (like composing music or a song to God) can be done by a person who may be a bit tipsy but not excessively.
From an article:
"... I intentionally used “tavern/drinking songs” in my description of the mythstory so as to not fall into the semantic trap myself. However, in the more common version of the myth the term used is “bar songs” or “bar tunes.”
This might seem quibbling, but it’s actually quite important since writers like Luther did indeed use “bar tunes” in their compositions. But sometimes univocation can strike back.
It is true, Luther did use bar tunes. It is crucial to note, however, that the term “bar tune” (more commonly referred to as “bar from”) is simply musical terminology referring to a specific musical form. In bar form, there are two similar or identical musical lines followed by a contrasting one, taking the form of AAB or sometimes AABA).
For example, A Mighty Fortress employs a variation of this form:
A: A mighty Fortress is our God,
A trusty Shield and Weapon;
A: He helps us free from every need
That hath us now o’ertaken.
B: The old evil Foe
Now means deadly woe;
Deep guile and great might
Are his dread arms in fight;
A’: On Earth is not his equal.
The secular/sacred dichotomy that makes sense to post-moderns once again makes things difficult here, for in Luther’s time
stylistically there is very little difference between a German popular song in the sixteenth century, a sacred Protestant chorale and a Leise. (Rebecca Wagner Oettinger, Music as Propaganda in the German Reformation, p. 25)
Due to the lack of distinction between the sacred and the secular in music in the late medieval period, often the people writing music for sacred texts were the same ones writing for “secular” texts. And given the enormous influence that the church had on culture in the medieval period, the result is that folk culture was more influenced by the church than the other way around:..."
Christian Mythstory: Hymns and Drinking Songs – deviantmonk
Images of spiritual music from secular tunes:
hymns from secular tunes - Bing images
"A person who is drunk cannot do anything that pleases God in his drunken state, including composing or playing music that pleases God."
The scripture states: be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess, but be filled with the Spirit; Ephesians 5:18
And elsewhere it says that those habitually drink, that is, drunkards, shall not be allowed into the kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 6:10). But show the scripture that says nothing good (like composing music or a song to God) can be done by a person who may be a bit tipsy but not excessively.
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Where is it stated that the music played was composed for these feasts?
"The passage does not specify any information about the instrumental music that was played."
So bottom line we cannot say that the music used came from nefarious sources, only that it was employed to accompany evil behavior.
"The passage does not specify any information about the instrumental music that was played."
So bottom line we cannot say that the music used came from nefarious sources, only that it was employed to accompany evil behavior.
Scripture More Accurately
Well-Known Member
"The passage does not specify any information about the instrumental music that was played."
That also means that we cannot deny that the music used came from nefarious sources.
Nor can it be denied that all of the music played in this event was improvised on the spot and none of it was composed beforehand.
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Scripture More Accurately
Well-Known Member
Scripture More Accurately
Well-Known Member
Like Isaiah 5:11-15, Amos 6:1-8 speaks of God's pronouncing a woe on drunken, indulgent leaders among His people:
Amos 6:1 Woe to them that are at ease in Zion, and trust in the mountain of Samaria, which are named chief of the nations, to whom the house of Israel came! 2 Pass ye unto Calneh, and see; and from thence go ye to Hamath the great: then go down to Gath of the Philistines: be they better than these kingdoms? or their border greater than your border? 3 Ye that put far away the evil day, and cause the seat of violence to come near; 4 That lie upon beds of ivory, and stretch themselves upon their couches, and eat the lambs out of the flock, and the calves out of the midst of the stall; 5 That chant to the sound of the viol, and invent to themselves instruments of musick, like David; 6 That drink wine in bowls, and anoint themselves with the chief ointments: but they are not grieved for the affliction of Joseph. 7 Therefore now shall they go captive with the first that go captive, and the banquet of them that stretched themselves shall be removed. 8 The Lord GOD hath sworn by himself, saith the LORD the God of hosts, I abhor the excellency of Jacob, and hate his palaces: therefore will I deliver up the city with all that is therein.
In this passage, however, God speaks not just of their having musical instruments in their debauchery but also of what they were doing with those instruments:
5 That chant to the sound of the viol, and invent to themselves instruments of musick, like David;
This text attests to God's displeasure with both the ungodly verbal expression and the ungodly instrumental music of these drunken, indulgent people.
Because Scripture provides two explicit passages (Is. 5, Amos 6) in which He expresses His strong displeasure ("woe unto/to them") with the playing of certain instrumental music in contexts of drunken, indulgent activities by wicked people, we can be certain that God is warning us about the instrumental music of people who habitually abuse alcohol.
Rock musicians and other popular musicians have been infamous for being people who have abused alcohol and other addictive substances. In addition to the evidence about the occult character of their music, this dimension of their music further teaches us to completely reject all their music as instrumental music that does not please God.
Amos 6:1 Woe to them that are at ease in Zion, and trust in the mountain of Samaria, which are named chief of the nations, to whom the house of Israel came! 2 Pass ye unto Calneh, and see; and from thence go ye to Hamath the great: then go down to Gath of the Philistines: be they better than these kingdoms? or their border greater than your border? 3 Ye that put far away the evil day, and cause the seat of violence to come near; 4 That lie upon beds of ivory, and stretch themselves upon their couches, and eat the lambs out of the flock, and the calves out of the midst of the stall; 5 That chant to the sound of the viol, and invent to themselves instruments of musick, like David; 6 That drink wine in bowls, and anoint themselves with the chief ointments: but they are not grieved for the affliction of Joseph. 7 Therefore now shall they go captive with the first that go captive, and the banquet of them that stretched themselves shall be removed. 8 The Lord GOD hath sworn by himself, saith the LORD the God of hosts, I abhor the excellency of Jacob, and hate his palaces: therefore will I deliver up the city with all that is therein.
In this passage, however, God speaks not just of their having musical instruments in their debauchery but also of what they were doing with those instruments:
5 That chant to the sound of the viol, and invent to themselves instruments of musick, like David;
This text attests to God's displeasure with both the ungodly verbal expression and the ungodly instrumental music of these drunken, indulgent people.
Because Scripture provides two explicit passages (Is. 5, Amos 6) in which He expresses His strong displeasure ("woe unto/to them") with the playing of certain instrumental music in contexts of drunken, indulgent activities by wicked people, we can be certain that God is warning us about the instrumental music of people who habitually abuse alcohol.
Rock musicians and other popular musicians have been infamous for being people who have abused alcohol and other addictive substances. In addition to the evidence about the occult character of their music, this dimension of their music further teaches us to completely reject all their music as instrumental music that does not please God.
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Bassoonery
Active Member
Your example of Luther is excellent and there are many more like it to be found throughout the (global) history of Christian music.
I don’t want to get caught up in this debate, but I think there is a better Amos verse that has been missed from this conversation: Amos 5:23: Take away from me the noise of your songs; to the melody of your harps I will not listen.
My 2 cents: God cares less about what is being offered and more about whether it is offered in spirit and in truth. Whatever is not offered in a proper attitude of worship, be it a melody or a lamb, money or our firstfruits, is displeasing to God.
Scripture More Accurately
Well-Known Member
I have chosen not to bring up Amos 5:23 (and other similar passages) at this point because they do not specifically have the element that I am focusing on at this time: instrumental music in the setting of drunken indulgence.
Depending on how the conversation develops, there is a lot more Scripture such as Amos 5:23 that I would treat at a later point.
Scripture More Accurately
Well-Known Member
Where there is drunken indulgence taking place in wild "partying," we can be certain that there will also be great dissolution featuring sensuality and immorality:
Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Notice that the inspired list of the works of the flesh begins with 4 different terms for sensuality/immorality!
People who are given over to the works of the flesh will be sensual people. Such people will produce and favor sensual music that fits in with the sensuality of their activities and mindsets.
For the believer, there is no place in his life for such debauched music that is sensual to the core. All such music must be categorically rejected.
Numerous testimonies from rock musicians and other popular musicians testify to the essential and purposeful sensuality of their instrumental music. The consecrated believer must reject any and all use of such ungodly instrumental music (with or without any lyrics being sung) that does not please God.
Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Notice that the inspired list of the works of the flesh begins with 4 different terms for sensuality/immorality!
People who are given over to the works of the flesh will be sensual people. Such people will produce and favor sensual music that fits in with the sensuality of their activities and mindsets.
For the believer, there is no place in his life for such debauched music that is sensual to the core. All such music must be categorically rejected.
Numerous testimonies from rock musicians and other popular musicians testify to the essential and purposeful sensuality of their instrumental music. The consecrated believer must reject any and all use of such ungodly instrumental music (with or without any lyrics being sung) that does not please God.