Are The Unchurched Saved?

[tyndale1946]

Please don't bring up that because of what we have been going through many have not been able to go to church... I am talking about those who have left church because of splits, divisions, doctrinal disagreement, unrest, problem in the church between members and by their own decision left church all together... And have not found another... They haven't left God, they left the church and there is a difference... You don't throw the baby out with the bathwater... Thoughts???... Brother Glen

 

[JonC]

Possibly saved, but probably disobedient.

We are saved to be a part of the body of Christ, our gifts working together as a part of the whole.

I would suspect one who is unchurched and content probably was never saved (God disciplines His children). At the same time I have to acknowledge that our churches are far from the congregational communities of the Bible. But there should be a desire to be a part of the body to accomplish those purposes for which we were saved to accomplish.

 

[Yeshua1]

Please don't bring up that because of what we have been going through many have not been able to go to church... I am talking about those who have left church because of splits, divisions, doctrinal disagreement, unrest, problem in the church between members and by their own decision left church all together... And have not found another... They haven't left God, they left the church and there is a difference... You don't throw the baby out with the bathwater... Thoughts???... Brother Glen

Would think some are saved and in rebellion, while others never were!

 

[SGO]

Couldn't there be some saved that for example:

1. do not like to deal with "know it all" pastors/preachers who have the attitude "we are scriptural here" you don't like it: tough
2. do not like to deal with others' expectations
3. cannot deal with their own shortcomings
4. have real problems with no help available
5. have not met anyone with whom they share common ground or who have been at least friendly
6. see the problems of others who don't think they have any
7. some who are not disobedient but just want to commune with God in a non-judgemental public setting
8. many other reasons some of which you can supply if you think about it for a minute

 

[Dave G]

Please don't bring up that because of what we have been going through many have not been able to go to church... I am talking about those who have left church because of splits, divisions, doctrinal disagreement, unrest, problem in the church between members and by their own decision left church all together... And have not found another... They haven't left God, they left the church and there is a difference... You don't throw the baby out with the bathwater... Thoughts???... Brother Glen

I've underlined my reasons for why I left the ones in my area many years ago, and am praying that the Lord would lead me to His people, no matter what setting that I find myself in...traditional church or house church, I'm content going where He leads me.

So far we are two...
and so far He has been silent, but in the process He is showing us His grace in many ways.
That aside, let's define "church" by His word, Glen.

What is a church, in the biblical sense?
What we see in the traditional, visible churches... with "pews", "altars", "baptistries", "choirs", "associate pastors", "trustees", "foyers", "building funds", "tithing", etc?
Or is it a gathering of God's people under one roof to glorify Him and be instructed in His word and in His ways?

As the Scripture shows, we know that the first churches met in homes.
Is this not an acceptable way even today?

To me it is one thing to be in rebellion to Him ( which genuine believers are not, at heart ), and quite another to still obey Hebrews 10:24-25 and yet not ever darken the doorway of a traditional church building.
That's not to say I will not, but it is to say, "why do we as believers insist on wasting the money that the Lord gives us on all the trappings of "religion", and not in giving it to the poor and to meet our brothers' and sisters' needs?"

I believe that that is a valid question and needs to be answered.

"Out here" I've found freedom, my friend, in not caving to tradition and simply meeting together as those who came before us did...
Before professing believers started constructing "temples", not realizing that anywhere a group of Spirit-indwelt believers is gathered together under one roof, is the pillar and ground of the truth and the house of the living God.

In other words, it's a spiritual house, my friend...not a physical one.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I go to different churches to gauge the levels of spiritual growth, see if they are teaching scripture, etc. Truly have not found anything that’s biblical... they all have their quirks and allot are dead or dying. And I’m not interested in dead an or dying churches.

 

[George Antonios]

Many unchurched people are saved and (aside the shut-in's) either:

a) bitter (sometimes due to truly being hurt, but still wrong)
b) slothful
c) proud (too spiritual for any church, and won't submit to anyone, bless their spiritual little hearts)
d) all of the above (naturally masked by the most spiritual of stances, of course)

Forums are a great escape to soothe a guilty conscience and vent one's frustrated contentiousness.

 

[Dave G]

And I’m not interested in dead an or dying churches.

Neither am I, my friend.

I'm looking for churches that preach the truth and are willing to obey His commands.
I say this realizing that not one of God's children are perfect in this life, and I'm not looking for that...
I know full well that they can be a mess until they grow for a while, as spiritual growth takes time.

But I am looking for people who are serious about being separated from this world and its ways, and will readily accept every word of God and believe it;
Not just a few verses they've learned out of a systematic theological framework.
I'm looking for people who love the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, not the god of the false teachers.

Mostly all that's around me are ones where sound doctrine is libeled and slandered, ignored or disbelieved,
and no one cares past the church's "activities", like "Christmas programs", "AWANA" / "King's Kids" and so forth.

That's not what we as believers are about.
Jesus Christ and what He did for us on that cross, is.

Perhaps the Lord will lead me to some of them soon, as that is my sincere prayer.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Many unchurched people are saved and (aside the shut-in's) either:

a) bitter (sometimes due to truly being hurt, but still wrong)
b) slothful
c) proud (too spiritual for any church, and won't submit to anyone, bless their spiritual little hearts)
d) all of the above (naturally masked by the most spiritual of stances, of course)

Forums are a great escape to soothe a guilty conscience and vent one's frustrated contentiousness.

Yea... and the horse you rode in on.

 

[Dave G]

Yea... and the horse you rode in on.

Let's remember what the Lord has done for us, my friend.
And remember to seek peace with all men.

Deep down,
I think that George really knows that there are reasons other than pride when it comes to why some Christians simply won't "go to church" anymore,
and it has a lot to do with many of those places being filled with people who enjoy making pointed remarks and getting a kick out of hurting those who are hurting, instead of comforting them as the Lord tells us to do ( Galatians 6:2, Romans 12, Romans 15:1, Galatians 5:14, 1 Thessalonians 5:14, Philippians 2:4 ).


As an example ( and what I find even more ironic ), is that out of all the churches that I attended ( and the one that I belonged to ) growing up,
Not one of them ever "broke the mold" by actually caring about the people that they disagreed with, or asking them why they left...unless they were "popular" and they would be missed.
I also always knew that if anyone departed from the doctrines of that church, they were looked on as the enemies of God and not treated respectfully and with sadness watching them go.

To the best of my recollection, I saw many times where, if a person left and went to a church that was more "liberal",
they were met with smug comments like "good riddance" instead of tears of sadness.


Biblically defined Christian conduct often took a back seat to "cult mentality".

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Neither am I, my friend.

I'm looking for churches that preach the truth and are willing to obey His commands.
I say this realizing that not one of God's children are perfect in this life, and I'm not looking for that...
I know full well that they can be a mess until they grow for a while, as spiritual growth takes time.

But I am looking for people who are serious about being separated from this world and its ways, and will readily accept every word of God and believe it;
Not just a few verses they've learned out of a systematic theological framework.
I'm looking for people who love the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, not the god of the false teachers.

Mostly all that's around me are ones where sound doctrine is libeled and slandered, ignored or disbelieved,
and no one cares past the church's "activities", like "Christmas programs", "AWANA" / "King's Kids" and so forth.

That's not what we as believers are about.
Jesus Christ and what He did for us on that cross, is.

Perhaps the Lord will lead me to some of them soon, as that is my sincere prayer.

I feel ya.... New Jersey is pretty bad for what you and I have been searching for. My brother was a pastor in N E Pennsylvania but moved back here to re-orient his life, find a job that paid a living wage, provide a decent education for his 3 kids etc. He has been wandering from church to church and still can’t find one no matter how he try’s. It’s kinda frightening! We are both wanders in our own land. God must have a plan but he hasn’t revealed it to my broth or me. Maybe we gotta move out of here.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Let's remember what the Lord has done for us, my friend.
And remember to seek peace with all men.

Deep down,
I think that George really knows that there are reasons other than pride when it comes to why some Christians simply won't "go to church" anymore,
and it has a lot to do with many of those places being filled with people who enjoy making pointed remarks and getting a kick out of hurting those who are hurting, instead of comforting them as the Lord tells us to do ( Galatians 6:2, Romans 12, Romans 15:1, Galatians 5:14, 1 Thessalonians 5:14, Philippians 2:4 ).


As an example ( and what I find even more ironic ), is that out of all the churches that I attended ( and the one that I belonged to ) growing up,
Not one of them ever "broke the mold" by actually caring about the people that they disagreed with, or asking them why they left...unless they were "popular" and they would be missed.
I also always knew that if anyone departed from the doctrines of that church, they were looked on as the enemies of God and not treated respectfully and with sadness watching them go.

To the best of my recollection, I saw many times where, if a person left and went to a church that was more "liberal",
they were met with smug comments like "good riddance" instead of tears of sadness.


Biblically defined Christian conduct often took a back seat to "cult mentality".

Dave, every day I get up and have to fight, whether it be doctors, lawyers, insurance companies, hospitals, etc, so what I don’t need is some snide comments from religious representation attempting to put me in a box. Seriously, horse & rider could get out of dodge if you know what I mean. The only way I know I’m a changed man is that I’m not hoisting them up by their own pitards in the process! I’m much more lenient these days thanks to the Holy Ghost.

there was a time, before I got old, when I would walk around with my dog and have conversations with neighbors about stuff... the weather, how’s your health, what’s doing and invariably so how’s G-D working in your life. That question almost always led to interesting comments. Most folks believe in some presence above themselves, generally they acknowledge a Higher Power but at some point, something happened to compromise that relationship... many many stories. And in general, nobody thought enough to repair it. Honestly, there are souls out there amongst us waiting and hoping for repair, reconciliation but nobody bothers to do the work... it’s just sad.

 

[George Antonios]

Yea... and the horse you rode in on.

I don't know what that means, but if that was written in offence, then, point made.

 

[George Antonios]

I said "many" Christians. No one said "all" or "you", and I acknowledged that many were truly hurt.
But you know, toss a brick in a pack of dogs and the one that barks is the one that got hit.
I've heard and seen too many bleeding hearts judge churches and pastors while fancying themselves more spiritual. They all know what ought to be done, and judge those trying, but they'll just stay home and coach from the benches.
We've all been hurt, and we have all hurt.
We all have been disappointed and have disappointed.
I just told you why MANY Christians are out: bitterness, slothfulness, and good ol' pride. And that's the truth.

 

[George Antonios]

Let's remember what the Lord has done for us, my friend.
And remember to seek peace with all men.

Deep down,
I think that George really knows that there are reasons other than pride when it comes to why some Christians simply won't "go to church" anymore,
and it has a lot to do with many of those places being filled with people who enjoy making pointed remarks and getting a kick out of hurting those who are hurting, instead of comforting them as the Lord tells us to do ( Galatians 6:2, Romans 12, Romans 15:1, Galatians 5:14, 1 Thessalonians 5:14, Philippians 2:4 ).


As an example ( and what I find even more ironic ), is that out of all the churches that I attended ( and the one that I belonged to ) growing up,
Not one of them ever "broke the mold" by actually caring about the people that they disagreed with, or asking them why they left...unless they were "popular" and they would be missed.
I also always knew that if anyone departed from the doctrines of that church, they were looked on as the enemies of God and not treated respectfully and with sadness watching them go.

To the best of my recollection, I saw many times where, if a person left and went to a church that was more "liberal",
they were met with smug comments like "good riddance" instead of tears of sadness.


Biblically defined Christian conduct often took a back seat to "cult mentality".

Cue the violin music and the Kleenex.

Too often all too true what you said, but what you ain't doing better.

 

[Dave G]

Cue the violin music and the Kleenex.

I think that that just made my point,
and is part of why I no longer "go to church".

People mocking and belittling other people I can get on any forum across the internet and in any chat room...
Christians mocking and belittling other Christians?
Why would I want to see that or be on the receiving end of that kind of behavior face to face?

If a pastor who names the name of Christ is going to make fun of people,
what are the odds the rest of the church doesn't do it as well?

Thanks, but no thanks.

Too often all too true what you said, but what you ain't doing better.

George, this isn't me saying that I'm in any way better than anyone.

What I'm saying is that God is not really represented ( or obeyed ) in the churches where I'm at, but there sure is a lot of "activity"...
even though most of it doesn't do anything but circle the Bible as a "reference book".

I hope that helps to clear up what I was trying to get across.

That said,
It was not my intention to get into a discussion with you ( and it seems to me that you're not really willing to listen anyway, which again is part of my point )...
only to share with the readers of this thread my answer to the title of it...

Which is "Yes, in some cases".

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I don't know what that means, but if that was written in offence, then, point made.

Good, I like knowing you clearly understand my point.. Proceed in your criticism so I can correct you.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I think that that just made my point,
and is part of why I no longer "go to church".

People mocking and belittling other people I can get on any forum across the internet and in any chat room...
Christians mocking and belittling other Christians?
Why would I want to see that or be on the receiving end of that kind of behavior face to face?

If a pastor who names the name of Christ is going to make fun of people,
what are the odds the rest of the church don't do it as well?

Thanks but no thanks.

George, this isn't me saying that I'm in any way better than anyone.

What I'm saying is that God is not really represented ( or obeyed ) in the churches where I'm at, but there sure is a lot of "activity"...
even though most of it doesn't do anything but circle the Bible as a "reference book".

I hope that helps to clear up what I was trying to get across.

That said,
It was not my intention to get into a discussion with you ( and it seems to me that you're not really willing to listen anyway, which again is part of my point )...
only to share with the readers of this thread my answer to the title of it...

Which is "Yes, in some cases".

Bravo Dave

 

[Dball65]

1 Kings 19
I am the only one left!
What are you doing here?
Get out of the cave I have work for you?

Bravo @George Antonios

 

[Dave G]

1 Kings 19
I am the only one left!
What are you doing here?
Get out of the cave I have work for you?

Actually, thanks for posting that, Dball.

I thought it was strange that Glen posted this thread here in the CvA section, but perhaps it wasn't his doing all by itself.
I sometimes lose track of how the Lord works things even in the midst of appearances.

Let's look at what He told Elijah when he was alone and thinking there was no one else who cared about the Lord and doing His will:

In 1 Kings 19:1-8, Ahab tells Jezebel all that Elijah had done, and Jezebel threatens Elijah...
So Elijah runs for his life and finds a cave after 40 days and 40 nights:

" And he came thither unto a cave, and lodged there; and, behold, the word of the Lord [came] to him, and he said unto him, What doest thou here, Elijah?
10 And he said, I have been very jealous for the Lord God of hosts: for the children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, [even] I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away." ( 1 Kings 19:9-10 ).

He tells the Lord that in the process of being very jealous for the Lord in the midst of Israel forsaking the covenant and killing His prophets, he believes that he is the only one left.
The Lord then tells him, using examples of strong wind, earthquake and fire, that He is not in the wind or the earthquake or the fire...
But a still small voice that speaks.

After Elijah makes his complaint to the Lord, He tells Elijah to go anoint Hazael to be king over Syria, Jehu king over Israel, and Elisha a prophet in his place.
He then tells him that those that escape the sword of Hazael, Jehu will kill, and those that escape the sword of Jehu, Elisha shall kill.
Then He makes this very important statement:

"Yet I have left [me] seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him." ( 1 Kings 19:18 ).