1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Help with Romans 11:20-21

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by George Antonios, Mar 27, 2021.

Tags:
  1. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2019
    Messages:
    2,895
    Likes Received:
    298
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I believe in the eternal security of the church-age believer, but I don't have an exposition that perfectly satisfies me when it comes to:
    Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
    Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

    The commentators I have read which defend eternal security did not truly tackle the verses head-on.
    My own best answer for the moment is that the thou standest by faith is national, not individual.
    I can relatively well make that case from the verses in context.
    But I wish to have as good an answer as possible in relation to defending eternal security. Could you thus help me expound the passage without resorting to the amateurish and ubiquitous "this verse is poorly translated" escape?

    Thanks
     
    #1 George Antonios, Mar 27, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2021
  2. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    10,911
    Likes Received:
    1,458
    Faith:
    Baptist
    George, the first part of Romans 11 tells you the answer.
    Israel (the nation) was in covenant with God. This covenant meant that the nation (all person's in the nation) were partakers under this covenant. But it did not mean that all were redeemed by grace and gifted faith to believe. Only a remnant believed.
    When Jesus died and rose again, he ended the Sinai Covenant with Israel and the New Covenant was its replacement. The nation of Israel was cut off, but those elected by grace to receive faith continued on. Many gentiles have been grafted in to this new covenant while many in Israel were cut off from the new covenant. Paul longs for his cultural brothers and sisters to be grafted back in to covenant with God in the new covenant.

    Romans 11:1-10
    I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? “Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.” But what is God’s reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace. What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, as it is written, “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day.” And David says, “Let their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them; let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see, and bend their backs forever.”

    One thing Romans 11 is not is:
    It is not about losing ones salvation.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    5,632
    Likes Received:
    461
    Faith:
    Baptist
    this is a direct quote, if it may serve you.
    Romans 11:20

    Well
    To this the apostle answers, by approving and granting in, part what was said, that the unbelieving Jews were broken off and rejected, and that the Gentiles that believed in Christ were grafted in among the Jews that professed his name; but then he tacitly denies that it was for their sakes, and their account, they were broken off, but for their own incredulity:

    because of unbelief they were broken off;
    because of their unbelief and contempt of the Messiah, they were rejected of God, and died in their sins; that which excluded their forefathers from the land of Canaan, shut them out of the Gospel church state, and the kingdom of heaven:

    and thou standest by faith;
    which is not of a man's self, but the gift of God; so that it was not by their merits, and better deservings, but by the grace of God that they were in the situation they were; they were blessed with faith in Christ, and having made a profession of it were admitted to Gospel ordinances, and into a Gospel church; and being helped hitherto to hold the profession of their faith in a becoming manner they stood their ground, and continued in their church relation; and therefore ought not to give way to a vain boasting spirit, but to be humble, modest, and dependent; wherefore he gives them this proper pertinent, and wholesome advice,

    be not highminded, but fear.
    The apostle would have them not be elated with their gifts, privileges, and enjoyments, and look over others, or down upon them with contempt and disdain, considering that all they had and enjoyed were owing to the goodness of God, and not to any deserts of theirs; and therefore should fear the Lord and his goodness; for not a fear of hell and damnation, or a distrust of the grace of God, is here meant; but a fear of offending him, and that not from a dread of punishment, but from a sense of his grace and goodness; and also designs humility of soul, in opposition to pride, haughtiness, and elation of mind, a lowly carriage and behaviour to others, and an humble dependence on grace and strength from above, to enable to persevere and hold out to the end; for "let him that thinks he stands take heed lest he fall" into sin, ( 1 Corinthians 10:12 ) ; so as to dishonour God and Christ grieve the Holy Spirit, wound his own conscience, and bring himself under the censure of the church, and to be cut off from the good olive tree, the root and fatness of which he now partakes.

    Romans 11:21

    For if God spared not the natural branches
    That is, executed his righteous judgments, inflicted due punishment upon the Jews, unchurched them, and stripped them of those privileges they enjoyed in a church state; who were the natural descendants of Abraham; were naturally, and as born into the world, in a national church state and in that national covenant God made with that people; to whom belonged a national adoption, in which sense they were the sons of God, his firstborn; they were chosen by him as a special and peculiar people, to very great favours and privileges; they were Christ's own, he came of them according to the flesh, and was particularly sent unto them, and ministered among them; wherefore, if, at last, God did not spare this people, though he had for a long time done it, but stirred up all his wrath against them, they disbelieving his Son, rejecting and despising the Messiah, and salvation by him, this should awaken the fear, care, and caution of the Gentiles in a church state, lest if they behave not well, he should deal in like manner with them:

    take heed lest he also spare not thee;
    for whatever was done to the Jews in former or latter times, are written for the instruction and admonition of Gentiles; and the use they are to make thereof is, to be careful and cautious, lest by imbibing principles derogatory from the grace of God and glory of Christ, or by an unbecoming walk and conversation they provoke the Lord to unchurch them as he has done the Jews before them; and which they may the rather fear, since the Jews were the natural branches, and they formerly strangers and aliens.
     
  4. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,742
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;

    Who were broken off? Unbelieving Jews

    What were they broken off from? Redemption through or by reason of faith.

    Born anew believers (Jew and Gentile) are grafted into the promise of redemption.

    Just because a person professes faith, they should not be conceited, but fear they too were never born anew, but instead are tares like the folks of Matthew 7. God gives grace to the humble, but opposes the proud.
     
  5. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2005
    Messages:
    13,409
    Likes Received:
    1,760
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The phrase “high-minded” may be the key to understanding the passage.

    “High-minded” denotes pride, which God hates. Perhaps some looked down on Jews, blaming them for the death of Jesus, thinking them non-redeemable and beyond salvation.

    That was the attitude many Jews had toward Gentiles and Paul is pointing out such an attitude was a detriment. Better to fear God (reverence and awe) rather than look down on other groups thinking yourself saved and them without hope.

    peace to you
     
  6. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    17,825
    Likes Received:
    1,363
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I understand sanctification not salvation is being spoken of. It is my understanding that the sanctifcation precedes (1 Peter 1:2, 2 Thessalonians 2:13) the repentance and faith, Hebrews 10:29, Acts of the Apostles 7:51. See the stony gound. And 2 Corinthians 13:5.
     
    #6 37818, Mar 28, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2021
  7. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2019
    Messages:
    2,895
    Likes Received:
    298
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I don't see how that dealt with the verses in the OP.
     
  8. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2019
    Messages:
    2,895
    Likes Received:
    298
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I have Gill's commentary too (he should have been credited), but the fear that Paul is referring to is not some kind of thankful reverential fear. He defines it in the next verse as the fear of take heed lest he also spare not thee (v.21). The unbelieving Jews were not merely "unchurched" (whatever that means), they went to hell.
     
  9. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2019
    Messages:
    2,895
    Likes Received:
    298
    Faith:
    Baptist
    He is addressing believers, not professing believers.
     
  10. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2019
    Messages:
    2,895
    Likes Received:
    298
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Sure, but what of take heed lest he also spare not thee (v.21)?
     
  11. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2019
    Messages:
    2,895
    Likes Received:
    298
    Faith:
    Baptist
  12. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    10,911
    Likes Received:
    1,458
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I'm sorry you don't see how the verses before your two don't help you understand your verses. I'm not sure I can be any more plain. I recognize that if you don't understand God as a covenant making God and you don't understand the covenants God has made, you will struggle to grasp what Paul is saying. Paul speaks much about covenants in his letter to the Romans and the Galatians. Covenant is also an important part of Hebrews.
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  13. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2005
    Messages:
    13,409
    Likes Received:
    1,760
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Paul tells professing believers, on occasion, to examine themselves to be certain they are in the the faith.

    If they are exhibiting unChristlike behavior (highmindedness) he is warning them they were acting like unbelievers. If the unbelieving Jews were cast out, so could they if their profession of faith is not genuine.

    If their profession of faith is genuine, there is no room for highmindedness, only fear (awe) of God.

    peace to you
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,742
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    So you think born anew believers need to worry about being broken off like Old Covenant Jews.
     
  15. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2019
    Messages:
    2,895
    Likes Received:
    298
    Faith:
    Baptist
    No. I stated I believe in eternal security for the church-age believer in the OP.
    But a bad exposition is a bad exposition even when it proves my theology.
     
  16. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2019
    Messages:
    2,895
    Likes Received:
    298
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Right. But none of that is going on here in Romans 11:20-21. He is addressing a man standing by faith, not that thinks he's standing by faith.
     
  17. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2019
    Messages:
    2,895
    Likes Received:
    298
    Faith:
    Baptist
    How is that an exposition of Romans 11:20-21? Could you please address the words in the verses?
    Keep in mind that I believe in eternal security for the church-age believer.
     
  18. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,742
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Who were broken off? Unbelieving Jews
    What were they broken off from? Redemption through or by reason of faith.
    Born anew believers (Jew and Gentile) are grafted into the promise of redemption.


    Just because a person professes faith, they should not be conceited, but fear they too were never born anew, but instead are tares like the folks of Matthew 7. God gives grace to the humble, but opposes the proud.

    This passage (Romans 11:20-21) teaches the same truth as Luke 18:11. If we see ourselves as better than others, we lack the humility of actual believers.
     
  19. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2019
    Messages:
    2,895
    Likes Received:
    298
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The idea of mere profession is not in the passage.

    A mere professor would not have been graffed in to begin with:

    Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
     
  20. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    10,911
    Likes Received:
    1,458
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The words in verses 20-21 are explained by all the verses before them as they relate to the covenant God has made. I am unsure as to how I could be more plain for you.
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
Loading...