Disagreements on God.

[37818]

. . . the Son is not the Father, being a distinct person, but He is always God in every sense.

The Son is also aways God, true. But, no, not in every sense:
John 20:16, ". . . Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. . . ."

 

[SavedByGrace]

None of the so called non Biblcial creeds acknowledge Jesus Christ as Creator.

In the Bible, not the "creeds", this is what God the Father says to Jesus Christ:

"10 And: “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
11 They will perish, but You remain; And they will all grow old like a garment; 12 Like a cloak You will fold them up, And they will be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not fail.” (Hebrews 1)

This is the Father saying that Jesus Christ is the actual Creator. These words are from Psalm 102:25-27, where they are used of Elohim:

"Of old you laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you will remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You will change them like a robe, and they will pass away, but you are the same, and your years have no end."

Revelation 3:14 Jesus says of Himself, "“And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation"

Here the Greek ἀρχὴ, means, "that by which anything begins to be, the origin, active cause". Which means that Jesus Christ Himself, is THE "origin, active cause" of the whole Creation.

Colossians 1:16 says, "For in Him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through Him and for Him"

"ἐν αὐτῷ" (in Him) denotes that Jesus Christ is the SOURCE of all Creation

Genesis 1:1 says, "In the beginning Elohim (masculine, plural, as in the US, OUR, of verse 26) created the heavens and the earth"

There you have it, Jesus Christ IS the ACTUAL CREATOR, and not just some "agent"!

 

[37818]

let me give it to you as it is, here is the passage from John 4

21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

In this passage, the words "God is Spirit" refers to God the Father, and NOT also Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. You quoted this verse (24) to say that it refers to the entire Godhead. Jesus is here speaking as the God-Man, when He had a fleshly body, so He could not have meant that He was "spirit".

Good. Jesus calls His Father the "true God." John 17:3. So unless the Son and the Holy Spirit are true God too . . . .
So are the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit Himself one and same Spirit being God or three distinct Spirits who are God? (Romans 8:9, Romans 8:16, John 4:24, John 17:3) Are believers indwelt by one or three Spirits (1 John 5:12, John 17:3)?

 

[SavedByGrace]

The Son is also aways God, true. But, no, not in every sense:

and God the Father says to Jesus Christ in Hebrews 1:8, "Ὁ θρόνος σου ὁ Θεὸς εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα τοῦ αἰῶνος", that is, "Your Throne, O God, is for ever and ever". The Father addresses Jesus Christ as THE GOD, note the Greek article, "ὁ Θεὸς"

 

[SavedByGrace]

Good. Jesus calls His Father the "true God." John 17:3. So unless the Son and the Holy Spirit are true God too . . . .
So are the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit Himself one and same Spirit being God or three distinct Spirits who are God? (Romans 8:9, Romans 8:16, John 4:24, John 17:3) Are believers indwelt by one or three Spirits (1 John 5:12, John 17:3)?

you simple don't grasp the Holy Trinity.

 

[37818]

In the Bible, not the "creeds", this is what God the Father says to Jesus Christ:

"10 And: “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
11 They will perish, but You remain; And they will all grow old like a garment; 12 Like a cloak You will fold them up, And they will be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not fail.” (Hebrews 1)

This is the Father saying that Jesus Christ is the actual Creator. These words are from Psalm 102:25-27, where they are used of Elohim:

"Of old you laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you will remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You will change them like a robe, and they will pass away, but you are the same, and your years have no end."

Revelation 3:14 Jesus says of Himself, "“And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation"

Here the Greek ἀρχὴ, means, "that by which anything begins to be, the origin, active cause". Which means that Jesus Christ Himself, is THE "origin, active cause" of the whole Creation.

Colossians 1:16 says, "For in Him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through Him and for Him"

"ἐν αὐτῷ" (in Him) denotes that Jesus Christ is the SOURCE of all Creation

Genesis 1:1 says, "In the beginning Elohim (masculine, plural, as in the US, OUR, of verse 26) created the heavens and the earth"

There you have it, Jesus Christ IS the ACTUAL CREATOR, and not just some "agent"!

So are you arguing that Jesus Christ is His Father? Or is He the agent of His Father? John 5:19.

 

[SavedByGrace]

So are you arguing that Jesus Christ is His Father? Or is He the agent of His Father? John 5:19.

The Father is YHWH. Jesus Christ is YHWH. The Holy Spirit is YHWH. Not three Gods, but Three distinct Persons in One Godhead which is the Holy Trinity.

 

[1689Dave]

The Father is the only true God. But the Son is also God. Just as you are human because your father is human. And so is the Holy Spirit because he proceeds from both the Father and the Son who are God.

This involves the eternal generation by the Father, of the Son, from whom both, the Holy Spirit proceeds. This being without beginning or end is a static condition where all three are One God eternally manifested, without beginning or end, in three hypostases (persons = a close equivalent.

 

[SavedByGrace]

The Father is the only true God. But the Son is also God. Just as you are human because your father is human. And so is the Holy Spirit because he proceeds from both the Father and the Son who are God.

This involves the eternal generation by the Father, of the Son, from whom both, the Holy Spirit proceeds. This being without beginning or end is a static condition where all three are One God eternally manifested, without beginning or end, in three hypostases (persons = a close equivalent.

Subordination heresy!

 

[37818]

and God the Father says to Jesus Christ in Hebrews 1:8, "Ὁ θρόνος σου ὁ Θεὸς εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα τοῦ αἰῶνος", that is, "Your Throne, O God, is for ever and ever". The Father addresses Jesus Christ as THE GOD, note the Greek article, "ὁ Θεὸς"

Hebrews 1:8-9, "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows." Fellows? Partners? To a King (Anointed, Christ as a man has His God) Psalms 45:6-7. Compare Psalms 110:1. Christ the Son of David, whom David calls Lord.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Hebrews 1:8-9, "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows." Fellows? Partners? To a King (Anointed, Christ as a man has His God) Psalms 45:6-7. Compare Psalms 110:1. Christ the Son of David, whom David calls Lord.

so in your theology Jesus Christ is not Almighty God, but a demi-god?

 

[37818]

This involves the eternal generation by the Father, . . .

Utter unBiblical nonsense. The Son is the same Yahweh as His Father. And is the sole Cause of on behalf of God as God, John 1:2-3.

 

[37818]

so in your theology Jesus Christ is not Almighty God, but a demi-god?

No, in my theology Jesus Christ is Yahweh God, Creator, John 1:1-3, Exodus 20:11, "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, . . ."

 

[SavedByGrace]

Utter unBiblical nonsense. The Son is the same Yahweh as His Father. And is the sole Cause of on behalf of God as God, John 1:2-3.

what about the Holy Spirit?

 

[SavedByGrace]

The Father is the only true God. But the Son is also God

so Jesus Christ is a secondary god? we might as well accept the JW's translation of John 1:1, "and the Logos was a god"!

 

[37818]

you simple don't grasp the Holy Trinity.

I understand the Trinity better than you. God can only be a Trinity. Cannot not be a Trinity and be God.

 

[37818]

what about the Holy Spirit?

Genesis 1:2.

 

[37818]

so Jesus Christ is a secondary god? we might as well accept the JW's translation of John 1:1, "and the Logos was a god"!

John 17:3, ". . . true God . . . ." John 1:9, ". . . true Light . . . ." Hebrews 1:3

 

[canadyjd]

So the other 17 times that Greek phrase is use are also a statement of equality within the Godhead?

No.

Do you deny God is Jehovah? Yes or No?

I know the other 17 times cannot mean the Son is someone other than God. Jesus is God: totally and fully. Beyond the distinctions made within the Godhead (three persons: God the Father; God the Son; God Holy Spirit: one God). there is absolutely no “sense” in which Jesus is not God.

Thanks for answering the question directly; I’m glad you are not a Jehovah Witness.

The name “Jehovah” is an error in translation of the name of God from the OT: YHWH

Hebrew is originally only consonants. About the 3rd century, Jewish scholars devised a vowel “point” system, to help pronunciation.

Since the name of God (YHWH) was only to be spoken once a year by the High Priest, they used the vowels for the title “Lord” (Adonai) around the name YHWH as a reminder to lay folks reading the scroll not to pronounce YHWH, but Adonai instead.

The vowels “a”, “o” were added to YHWH, to mis-translate the name of God as “Jehovah”.

peace to you

 

[Dave G]

Subordination heresy!

" I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me." ( John 5:30 ).

" For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me." ( John 6:38 ).