Is this an error in the KJV?

[robycop3]

This is interesting here that I came across. According to a commentary by Matthew Henry (don’t agree with his soteriology), this is something to consider:

He was a despised man (Job 17:6): "He" (that is, Eliphaz, so some, or rather God, whom he all along acknowledges to be the author of his calamities) "has made me a byword of the people, the talk of the country, a laughing-stock to many, a gazing-stock to all and aforetime (or to men's faces, publicly) I was as a tabret, that whoever chose might play upon." They made ballads of him his name became a proverb it is so still, As poor as Job."He has now made me a byword," a reproach of men, whereas, aforetime, in my prosperity, I was as a tabret, deliciæ humani generis--the darling of the human race, whom they were all pleased with. It is common for those who were honoured in their wealth to be despised in their poverty.

Doesn’t appear to be an error by this description.

Good thoughts, but I don't think a horde of translators got it wrong when they wrote "spit in my face".

 

[John of Japan]

So many mistranslations in the KJV like other translations. The big one is translation Zoe Aionious to "Eternal Life" when it should be translated "The Life of the Ages" - big difference.

Welcome to the Baptist Board.

Forgive me for disagreeing with you the first time we meet, but you are mistaken about "Zoe Aionious." It is an idiom that means "eternal life." (P. S. It's actually zoe aionios, singular. Aionious would be plural. And it's usually in the accusative case.)

 

[Squire Robertsson]

@John of Japan, please note, I banned MBA for heresy this time yesterday morning.

 

[John of Japan]

@John of Japan, please note, I banned MBA for heresy this time yesterday morning.

Wow, that was quick!

 

[George Antonios]

In the KJV, Job 17:6 reads:6 He hath made me also a byword of the people; and aforetime I was as a tabret.

The word here rendered "tabret" (tamborine), topheth, actually means the act of spitting. The translators mistook it for toph, which means tamborine. Topheth only occurs that one time in the OT, while toph occurs several times. If the translators were inspired, as some KJVOs insist, they shoulda not have made such an oversight, as the KJV's rendition doesn't make sense. (Job was lamenting the sad state he'd fallen in.)

And the Hebrew word paniym, here rendered 'aforetime", actually means "face". And the Hebrew word "meshowl",(its only appearance in the OT Hebrew) here rendered 'byword', means a derision,(what 'byword' used to mean) so the verse ACTUALLY means that Job had become a derision to the people, & they spit in his face, which was as much of an insult now as it is today.

The intel was provided to me by a Jew who can read the Hebrew of the OT mss. He has no bias against the KJV. he reminded me that "Job" is the oldest book of Scripture we have, & it has several Hebrew words that don't appear anywhere else in Scripture, so translators have no other uses of a word to help them if the word isn't well-known.

John Gill gave an explanation, but is he actually right, or did he guess?
Job 17:6 - Meaning and Commentary on Bible Verse

Usually, obsession with a topic = conviction.

 

[robycop3]

Usually, obsession with a topic = conviction.

NEWP! Just more proof that the KJV aint perfect!

 

[Stratton7]

NEWP! Just more proof that the KJV aint perfect!

I’ve found a few more places since yesterday with different takes on this.


Job 17:6 "He hath made me also a byword of the people; and aforetime I was as a tabret."

“A byword”: This refers to shame, reproach, and a reputation that is extremely bad (compare Deut. 28:37; Psalm 69:11).

“Tabret”: The most disdainful act a person could commit to heap scorn and shame on someone as a wicked and unworthy person. Job’s friends were aiding him in getting such a reputation (verses 7-8).

Job became a byword for his generation for the terrible persecutions he endured. He is still a byword today to all who read the Bible. We are all amazed how Job stayed faithful to God through such terrible trials. All of us have a tendency to measure our trials with the trials of Job. "Tabret" in the verse here, means smiting, or contempt.

Another is:

Job 17:6. He hath made me also a byword of the people Either Eliphaz, or God; for whatsoever befell him, whether more immediately by the hand of God, or by any instrument, the ascribes it to him, as being suffered in Providence to befall him; as when he became a byword or proverb to the people in common, to whom an example might be set by one or more of Job's friends.

And another:

Job 17:6 [KJV] Job says in his plight [a person scorned, spit at] that he was once as a tabret. He was once an object of beauty unto Adonai [the LORD]. We read in chapter 17 that Job reflects on his once right-standing with Adonai that he was a tabret before all his intense suffering began. Job was a worshiper of the one true God [Yahweh]

(Here it looks to mean both spit and instrument, which topeth is used for both from what I understand so far).

One last one:

So, Job is a byword to people. That is, he’s become a proverb of suffering to those who know of him. He is the classic case of one who suffers.

And then Job says that he’s a tabret. That word appears once in the Old Testament and that’s of course right here. There are two possibilities as to what this word means.

First, it could be something into which people would spit. And that idea is bolstered by the fact that aforetime in verse 6 is the word for face. So, then Job is saying that he’s a proverb of suffering – and in fact, people are spitting in his face, as it were.

The other possibility as to what this word tabret means as we have it in the KJV is that it’s a small drum. And what do people do with drums? They beat them. And so, if that’s what this word means, then Job is saying that people are beating on him, so to speak.

Either way, Job is lamenting the fact that people are not being kind to him. They’re using him as a proverbial example of one who suffers. And then in light of that they’re either beating on him or spitting on him.

Others reference “topeth” as abhorrence or contempt.
Without looking at all the angles, I wouldn’t be so quick to call it an error.
The Greek word for tabret can have more than one meaning.

 

[robycop3]

I’ve found a few more places since yesterday with different takes on this.


Job 17:6 "He hath made me also a byword of the people; and aforetime I was as a tabret."

“A byword”: This refers to shame, reproach, and a reputation that is extremely bad (compare Deut. 28:37; Psalm 69:11).

“Tabret”: The most disdainful act a person could commit to heap scorn and shame on someone as a wicked and unworthy person. Job’s friends were aiding him in getting such a reputation (verses 7-8).

Job became a byword for his generation for the terrible persecutions he endured. He is still a byword today to all who read the Bible. We are all amazed how Job stayed faithful to God through such terrible trials. All of us have a tendency to measure our trials with the trials of Job. "Tabret" in the verse here, means smiting, or contempt.

Another is:

Job 17:6. He hath made me also a byword of the people Either Eliphaz, or God; for whatsoever befell him, whether more immediately by the hand of God, or by any instrument, the ascribes it to him, as being suffered in Providence to befall him; as when he became a byword or proverb to the people in common, to whom an example might be set by one or more of Job's friends.

And another:

Job 17:6 [KJV] Job says in his plight [a person scorned, spit at] that he was once as a tabret. He was once an object of beauty unto Adonai [the LORD]. We read in chapter 17 that Job reflects on his once right-standing with Adonai that he was a tabret before all his intense suffering began. Job was a worshiper of the one true God [Yahweh]

(Here it looks to mean both spit and instrument, which topeth is used for both from what I understand so far).

One last one:

So, Job is a byword to people. That is, he’s become a proverb of suffering to those who know of him. He is the classic case of one who suffers.

And then Job says that he’s a tabret. That word appears once in the Old Testament and that’s of course right here. There are two possibilities as to what this word means.

First, it could be something into which people would spit. And that idea is bolstered by the fact that aforetime in verse 6 is the word for face. So, then Job is saying that he’s a proverb of suffering – and in fact, people are spitting in his face, as it were.

The other possibility as to what this word tabret means as we have it in the KJV is that it’s a small drum. And what do people do with drums? They beat them. And so, if that’s what this word means, then Job is saying that people are beating on him, so to speak.

Either way, Job is lamenting the fact that people are not being kind to him. They’re using him as a proverbial example of one who suffers. And then in light of that they’re either beating on him or spitting on him.

Others reference “topeth” as abhorrence or contempt.
Without looking at all the angles, I wouldn’t be so quick to call it an error.
The Greek word for tabret can have more than one meaning.

But the English word 'tabret' has only the meaning as an old word for tambourine.

 

[rlvaughn]

But the English word 'tabret' has only the meaning as an old word for tambourine.

What is your source for this definition? Thanks.

 

[robycop3]

What is your source for this definition? Thanks.

Merriam-Webster dictionary, which says tabret is a small version of a tabor, a drum-like instrument, usually hung around the player's neck with a strap.

 

[rlvaughn]

Thanks. Some online dictionaries give as an obsolete meaning as a person who plays on the tabor or tabret. I wondered if OED might have something more.

 

[Jerome]

But the English word 'tabret' has only the meaning as an old word for tambourine.

Merriam-Webster dictionary, which says tabret is a small version of a tabor, a drum-like instrument, usually hung around the player's neck with a strap.

Some online dictionaries give as an obsolete meaning as a person who plays on the tabor or tabret....OED might have something more.

Merriam-Webster:

tabor: a small drum with one head of soft calfskin used to accompany a pipe or fife played by the same person
tabret: a small tabor, called also taborin



according to the authoritative Oxford English Dictionary:

tabor (also tabourin, tabret)

• The earlier name of the drum;
in later use, a small kind of drum (esp. since the introduction of the name drum in the 16th cent.)

• the drummer (with his drum)


• to perform upon or beat the tabor; to drum

• (figurative) to beat as upon a tabor; to drum. [OED cites to KJB, Nahum 2:7, as I did above]

• to beat, thump (anything); to thrash

 

[Jerome]

Reminder: when a figurative use not related to joyousness was shown, it was met with a dismissive response:

"tabering" (figurative) in Nahum 2:7 "...led away captive, she shall be brought up, and her maids shall lead her as with the voice of doves, tabering upon their breasts."

That's a lot different from playing a musical instrument

 

[rlvaughn]

Some online dictionaries give as an obsolete meaning as a person who plays on the tabor or tabret.

To clarify a bit on what I wrote above. A couple of places I noticed the two definitions were Collins and Dictionary.com.

tabret, noun.

a small tabor.
Obsolete. a person who plays upon this instrument.​