What Do You Believe about the Millennium?

[percho]

I encourage you to think more about what it will mean to Christ and to God than what it means to Israel. God's holy name has been profaned by that nation. He is going to vindicate the holiness of His great name by what He does in the future concerning that nation (Ezek. 20, 36; Zech. 14).

The greatest and most important consideration for believing in a future literal 1000-year millennial kingdom is the glory of God that He will bring about for Himself during that time.

I agree. And that in bold began on Pentecost following the resurrection of Jesus. God began calling out a people for his name, from the Jew first and also from the Greek, giving them his Spirit as an earnest of their redemptive inheritance. They make up the church, Acts 15:8 & 14 Eph 1:13,14

After this taking out a people for his name Jesus will return and rebuild the tabernacle of David, establish the throne of David on the earth, He and that remnant Joel 2:32/Acts 15:16 will reunite Judah and Israel Ezek 37:24 Rom 11:26 Acts 15:17 and then minister to the residue of man. Acts 15:17

IMHO means that is how I understand the scriptures. I ='s me. Everyone else can have their own opinion and I am fine with that. I can only express mine and post how it may differs from another.

 

[percho]

It does say together.....I do not think people are going to be standing there with a stopwatch saying ...oh yeah they were raised 19 seconds before us.
The passage says nothing about the millennium or the reign of Christ as you suggest.
It just is not there unless you insert it.

Probably why, "in a moment in the twinkling of an eye," is used.

 

[Aaron]

One still has to deny Hebrews 12:18-23 to deny that Revelation 20 is symbolism.

He has to deny Ephesians 2:6 .

And many more places in the Epistles and the Gospels must be denied or twisted so that one may have his holy land in the future.

 

[Iconoclast]

Lo here! Lo there! Lo here!

Not.

Luke 17:23-24

23 And they shall say to you, Lo, there! Lo, here! go not away, nor follow after them:
24 for as the lightning, when it lighteneth out of the one part under the heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall the Son of man be in his day. Lu 17

'As lightning lights up the entire sky, from the east unto the west, so is He in His kingdom'. A marvelous fulfillment of many OT prophecies, I call it 'the enlargement':

And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice: and they shall become one flock, one shepherd. Jn 10:16

And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Mt 24:31

1 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith Jehovah.
2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thy habitations; spare not: lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes.
3 For thou shalt spread aboard on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall possess the nations, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited. Isa 54

And I say unto you, that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven: but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast forth into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. Mt 8.11-12

God enlarge Japheth , And let him dwell in the tents of Shem .... Gen 9:27

But thanks be unto God, who always leadeth us in triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest through us the savor of his knowledge in every place. 2 Cor 2:14

For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of Jehovah, as the waters cover the sea. Hab 2:14

And he shall stand, and shall feed his flock in the strength of Jehovah, in the majesty of the name of Jehovah his God: and they shall abide; for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth. Micah 5:4

So shall they fear the name of Jehovah from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun; for he will come as a rushing stream, which the breath of Jehovah driveth. Isa 59:19

For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the Gentiles, saith Jehovah of hosts. Mal 1:11

Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass that, in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. Hosea 1:10

And it shall come to pass in the latter days, that the mountain of Jehovah`s house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. Isa 2:2

All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn unto Jehovah; And all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. Ps 22:27

Jehovah will be terrible unto them; for he will famish all the gods of the earth; and men shall worship him, every one from his place, even all the isles of the nations. Zeph 2:11

Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy king cometh unto thee; he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, even upon a colt the foal of an ass. And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem; and the battle bow shall be cut off; and he shall speak peace unto the nations: and his dominion shall be from sea to sea, and from the River to the ends of the earth. Zech 9:9-10

Thanks for gathering these wonderful verses Kyred.
I never grow weary of seeing verses describing the victory of God, as the gospel reign overcomes all the nations and those who oppose.

 

[Aaron]

I don't know ... I never really viewed God as "having something to prove to ANYBODY".

The way I see the big picture, God started out with Adam and Eve and allowed man to demonstrate that starting out with a perfect relationship and one trivial command, mankind still revealed that we cannot do it on our own strength and NEED a savior. Just to prove it was not just one bad example, God started over with Noah. God tried again with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Each time God came along side and offered unmerited grace and called for faithful trust in Him. Each time the result of Adam was repeated anew. By the close of the Patriarchs, there is no room for doubt that man needs far more than "a chance".

Then comes Moses and Exodus and the Law and the Prophets. God offers man, who cannot follow simple directions or innately trust in a personal relationship, a detailed set of instructions. Armed with the Law, men can now see exactly where and how they are failing in even the simplest of tasks (loving God and loving each other). The river of blood and stench of burning flesh pouring from the temple offers an indication (a mere glimpse) at how terrible and pervasive is our problem with sin. Without a savior, there is only death and blood and fire and smoke. Still mankind fails utterly to learn the lesson and turn to God.

For the "Third Act" of his unfolding drama, God sends a Savior and unleashes His Spirit to do "a new thing". God revealed His ULTIMATE SOLUTION. God will die, destroying the power of death, and claim for Himself a people ... His people ... from every Nation, Tribe and Tongue. Redeemed by His blood and upheld by His Spirit and joined eternally to His heart. This is the "age" in which we live. The age of the outpouring of the grace of God on a people chosen to serve Him out of a fallen world.

I genuinely find the fourth act confusing. There are details clearly foreshadowed and details heavily veiled. I am content with that. They are God's details and I trust Him with them. What I see in His Word are promises that the WORLD (all nations) will come to Israel and pay homage to the Throne of David, and He who sits on the throne of David will rule over a time of peace. If this was fulfilled in the past, the Prophet's definition of "world" and "peace" seems rather unimpressive, so I leave open the door to the possibility that God will yet fulfill this particular promise in the future.

If it is a future event and that portion of Revelation is literal (a huge assumption), then it will serve to only prove the same thing one more time. Even if God Himself were to come and sit as king and create a world of perfect justice and peace ... the very next event in Revelation is all of mankind revolting at the first opportunity.

1. Man will not walk with God in a garden.
2. Man will not learn from a detailed set of Laws.
3. Man will not accept being saved by grace through faith.
4. Man will not follow God even if they see Him with their own eyes.

School is over, Galatians 3:25 . I don't think there will be a "fourth act." Good analysis, anyway.

 

[atpollard]

School is over, Galatians 3:25 . I don't think there will be a "fourth act." Good analysis, anyway.

Thanks.

When dragons are attempting to eat babies and Jesus has a sword sticking out of His mouth, I am prepared to entertain the possibility that the whole book is about symbolism. However even without any "millennium" there will be a fourth act: Post judgement, new bodies, wedding feast, mansion of many rooms and eternity with Him (all from clear passages outside of Revelation).

Does it come with an earthly Prologue is the only question?

 

[Iconoclast]

One still has to deny Hebrews 12:18-23 to deny that Revelation 20 is symbolism.

He has to deny Ephesians 2:6 .

And many more places in the Epistles and the Gospels must be denied or twisted so that one may have his holy land in the future.

Good points.
Having held that position in times past, I know how they attempt to support it. For it to happen that way, everything that existed in the first century has to be recreated, sort of a "do-over"......rebuild a temple, animal sacrifices, antichrist, abomination that makes desolate,Jerusalem surrounded, etc.
It happened once. The cross happened once. The ascension and coronation of our King happened once.

 

[canadyjd]

I highlighted "tend" for a reason, but you just couldn't help yourself.
I did not mention you.
You mentioned me.

Throwing a little butter on the slander doesn’t make it taste any better.

I never stated you slandered me by name. I stated you slandered Christian brethren in general who disagree with you on a very debatable issue.

You are correct that I couldn’t help myself to call you out on an inappropriate post. I do so in Christian love with the hope you will realize your error and commit to a more civil discourse.

Thanks for the conversation

peace to you

 

[George Antonios]

Throwing a little butter on the slander doesn’t make it taste any better.

I never stated you slandered me by name. I stated you slandered Christian brethren in general who disagree with you on a very debatable issue.

You are correct that I couldn’t help myself to call you out on an inappropriate post. I do so in Christian love with the hope you will realize your error and commit to a more civil discourse.

Thanks for the conversation

peace to you

Oozing sanctimoniousness.

 

[asterisktom]

I am optimistic about the truth becoming more and more widespread, and good or benign at least traditions becoming distinguished from the Christian-dishonoring kinds.

Typing too fast again, and I cannot edit it. I meant "Christ-dishonoring".

 

[Iconoclast]

John of Japan,

Be encouraged. It's now 16 to 9 in favor of Christ's Millennial Reign, with one "Not sure."

Hello JOJ, although I am in Wisconsin, I am wandering around the bottom parts until Thursday....racine today, madison and Janesville tomorrow and Thursday, so the Cinnabons are still on hold

I think the Internet is spreading false/mistaken doctrine at a rapid rate. Theologians after WW2 declared postmil to be dead because of how evil mankind turned out to be in that war as well as before it.

Thankfully theologians after world war two do not have the final say of the reign of Jesus. The stock answer from post-mill types these days is we do not get our teaching from the newspapers but rather the scriptures.
There is no misconception on how evil and depraved mankind is since the fall. Gen.6
5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

At that time it was only theological liberals who were postmil, but for some weird reason Reformed people have now gotten ahold of it.

What you say is accurate in that many departed from considering the view as it looked as if the world was getting worse and worse.
Those who are critical of the view expect a steady upward growth,sort of like a rocket take-off from Cape Canaveral.
The reality is it is more like going over a mountain range.you go up, then down, then sideways, but overall progress is steady.
The gospel was first welcomed only in Israel, but now it has even gone into Japan
Reformed people gravitate to the puritans in their reading on all manner of studying. The look at what was the Puritan view of Mt. 28:18-20.

Somehow, postmil has come back to life, mistaken though it is.

Not everyone shares your understanding John.I am glad I know which each view offers.

That is in spite of the events after WW2 that also show how evil mankind is: many millions killed by Communists in various countries (far more than Hitler), Islamic terrorism, the current wickedness by the government of Myanmar, etc., etc.

Many today are looking at the misguided and weak churches as more of a culprit, than world events.

To me that resurrection of postmil in postwar America is really weird!

I understand your comment. That is why at this time why I refer to myself as a sort of"reluctant postmill".
i say reluctant because I had been taught to avoid this view as you have spoken of. I have tried to resist it, but it seems more consistent to me .
I am the only postmill on the poll so far,lol.i share more with the Amill or historic premill that your view.
I believe Hebrews 2:5-8 indicates that regenerate man has been called upon to take up gen 1:26-28 ,
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

gen 2;15.

Self-respecting liberals are now neo-orthodox, and theological conservatives have taken over the doctrine!

Because liberals jumped onboard and twisted the teaching into a social gospel, does not disqualify the teaching itself. They attach themselves like barnacles on a ship, but are not part of the ship.

I am not able to defend or present the position as solidly as I would like to, but I will be coming from that point of view until I know to do otherwise.

 

[canadyjd]

Oozing sanctimoniousness.

Thanks for the conversation.

peace to you

 

[Alan Gross]

That's what my Bible teaches.

Had
More Than Conquerors: An Interpretation of the Book of Revelation
and read it and Dean Davis' The High King of Heaven, four times, each.

Just got in
The Bible and the Future
by Anthony A. Hoekema

&

A Case for Amillennialism: Understanding the End Times

so, I am a beginner. But, I'm not a novice ( my word for those who read Revelation Chronologically and dream on from there...)

There ARE THREE-FOURTHS OF THE BIBLE we have been told to IGNORE!, since it pertains to something somewhere else, in some other 'time' that NNE AGREES ABOUT....(?)

NO, THOSE THREE-FOURTHS on The Kingdom of God, etc., ARE FOR NOW and ARE BLESSINGS WE HAVE BEEN ROBBED OF.

WORSHIP GOD, MORE, BY OPENING UP TO THE HOLY SPIRIT AND THE BIBLE!!!!

 

[kyredneck]

Oozing sanctimoniousness.

...yuck, zactly what I think of you....

 

[percho]

I understand your comment. That is why at this time why I refer to myself as a sort of"reluctant postmill".
i say reluctant because I had been taught to avoid this view as you have spoken of. I have tried to resist it, but it seems more consistent to me .
I am the only postmill on the poll so far,lol.i share more with the Amill or historic premill that your view.
I believe Hebrews 2:5-8 indicates that regenerate man has been called upon to take up gen 1:26-28 ,
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

gen 2;15.


Because liberals jumped onboard and twisted the teaching into a social gospel, does not disqualify the teaching itself. They attach themselves like barnacles on a ship, but are not part of the ship.

I am not able to defend or present the position as solidly as I would like to, but I will be coming from that point of view until I know to do otherwise.

I believe Hebrews 2:5-8 indicates that regenerate man has been called upon to take up gen 1:26-28 ,

I agree so let me ask.

When was Hebrews written? Last sentence of 2:8 But now we see not yet all things put under him.

When do you believe we will see, all things under that man of Genesis 1:26-28 the regenerated man?

Is this when? Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 1 John 3:2
Is this when? For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. Phil 3:20,21
Is this when? And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration, when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matt 19:28

Is that when they will reign with him? Was that already come to pass? Is that when the predestined are conformed to the image and Jesus then becomes the firstborn of many brethren? Romans 8:29 Hebrews 2:10,11 The Jesus who died and was raised crowned with glory and honour--- But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

Was that foreordained before the man in Gen 1 was created? Makes you wonder just what all was, foreordained? Predestined?

 

[Iconoclast]

I believe Hebrews 2:5-8 indicates that regenerate man has been called upon to take up gen 1:26-28 ,

I agree so let me ask.

When was Hebrews written? Last sentence of 2:8 But now we see not yet all things put under him.

When do you believe we will see, all things under that man of Genesis 1:26-28 the regenerated man?

Is this when? Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 1 John 3:2
Is this when? For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. Phil 3:20,21
Is this when? And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration, when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matt 19:28

Is that when they will reign with him? Was that already come to pass? Is that when the predestined are conformed to the image and Jesus then becomes the firstborn of many brethren? Romans 8:29 Hebrews 2:10,11 The Jesus who died and was raised crowned with glory and honour--- But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

Was that foreordained before the man in Gen 1 was created? Makes you wonder just what all was, foreordained? Predestined?

1cor15:
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.


Adam pre-fall was given Dominion, but the fall disrupted it. Born again believers now can resume that task.

 

[percho]

1cor15:
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.


Adam pre-fall was given Dominion, but the fall disrupted it. Born again believers now can resume that task.

I think this is where we differ.

Resume has nothing to do with it. It was never intended that the man of Gen 1:27/2:7 would have all things put under him. He was going to have to be better than that.

It would be this man from your scriptures above: afterward they that are Christ's at his coming It will be after this, which I believe takes place at his coming; And this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood the reign of God is not able to inherit, nor doth the corruption inherit the incorruption;

IMHO The first man was made as he was in order that the Son of God could be manifested like the first man, die, be raised out of the dead and then the first man could made like the Son of God. Foreordained before the foundation of the world for the purpose of destroying the devil and his works, including death. 1 John 3:8 Heb 2:14

IMHO that is the purpose of man. The sinner from the beginning, the devil, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan

I believe Satan needed to be dealt with before the man was created. My opinion.

 

[percho]

For those things I quoted from scripture relative to Satan to be dealt with; Would it have required a being subject to sin that could bring about death?

When exactly, according to scripture, will Satan be totally for all eternity be dwelt with?

BTW after what?

Call it whatever you will but what does scripture call it?

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

You think that a visit to the cemetery discredits my view? No, it only shows me that you are looking in the wrong place for the wrong evidence. Paul is not writing about bodies coming out of cemeteries. He is referring to those, already disembodied, who were (past tense) in Hades. These were the dead in Christ who went up to meet Christ in the air. And they were joined by the living survivors who were still on the Earth. It was this last group that was changed from their physical bodies. ("We shall be changed"). So this notion of graves opening up is sheer fantasy that comes from a serious misunderstanding of eschatology.

And, yes, Paul is referencing the same time period that Daniel was. In fact Paul shows in his writing a great indebtedness (if I can use that word for inspired writing) to Daniel. But that would be a subject for a different thread.

At any rate I guess I am writing this for others, not for someone whose very chosen moniker implies that his position requires no further cross-examination.

You are not handling this passage correctly by claiming that the passage is talking about people who were "already disembodied, who were (past tense) in Hades" as being "the dead in Christ who went up to meet Christ in the air."

The text does not teach any such thing about people being in Hades.

Rather, Paul did not to want the living Thessalonians to sorrow without hope about those who are asleep:

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

He then specifies who those people are and where they will have been and what they will experience:

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him [Jesus].

Here Paul teaches that the people that the Thessalonians were sorrowing about who were asleep in Jesus were already with Him and that God would bring them with Jesus. Obviously, He would bring their spirits, which were already with Jesus, back with Jesus to be reunited with their bodies that would rise as incorruptible bodies by His power.

Their bodies are what are asleep in Jesus, and it is their bodies that will be raised.

5 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Your notion that disembodied people who are in Hades are the ones who are the dead in Christ who rise first is wrong.

 

[percho]

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

The earth was without form, and void; and darkness, on the face of the deep.

My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

What was that darkness?

This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

and God saith, 'Let light be;' and light is. And God seeth the light, that good, and God separateth between the light and the darkness,


What is God about to do? What is God about to set in motion? What is going to be the end result?


IMHO