Dave G
Well-Known Member
The events of Revelation 4 through Revelation 22... which have not happened yet.
What do you see there, Tony?
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Will There Be a Future Literal 1000-Year Reign of Christ on the Earth?
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What do you see there, Tony?
Dave G
Well-Known Member
To me, it does not.
This passage is telling believers that they are come to a heavenly, spiritual city and nation...
and it agrees with Galatians 4:22-31.
Also, the passage in Galatians describes it as an allegory.
But according to other Scriptures there is both a heavenly Jerusalem and an earthly one.
The earthly one will be replaced when the new heavens and the new earth are created, and the New Jerusalem ( Revelation 21 ) comes down from Heaven... becoming a literal city for God's saints to live in on the new earth.
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The events of Revelation 4 through Revelation 22... which have not happened yet.
What do you see there, Tony?
Dave G....I am asking about two historical judgments that everyone agrees have already taken place.
There is language being used.
I am asking those who keep saying Revelation is literal except when it sort of is not, I have been asking this;
Is a possible that if you could see there was no cosmic catastrophes is it possible of the language of the Sun, moon,and stars represent something in the literal realm like a government power being taken down and replaced?
Did the heavens roll up like a scroll, did stars fall from heaven back then before the cross.
We cannot just skip over past the cross, and say these day of the Lord judgments were not written for them.What did that language speak of?
Then we can search for your evidence that it is somehow related to rev 4:-19
tweets are not going to get this done. you need to come with scripture.this tweet makes no sense.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Which ones are those?
Give me the passages and I'll consider them.
But if you're speaking of Revelation 8 and Revelation 9, I would not agree with this understanding of it.
Show me where it states this in God's word, Tony.
What is it that makes you agree with a-millennialism, if I may ask?
Where is this defined and declared in the Scriptures?
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"Dave G,
He is certainly ruling this earth....from heaven.
20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
20 For our citizenship is in the heavens, whence also a Saviour we await -- the Lord Jesus Christ --
He is certainly ruling this earth....from heaven.
20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
20 For our citizenship is in the heavens, whence also a Saviour we await -- the Lord Jesus Christ --
Dave G
Well-Known Member
If you say so, but I must politely disagree.
If He were ruling the earth right now, it wouldn't be the mess that it is.
It would fit the terms of the prophecies...the word of the Lord would be going forth from Jerusalem ( Zion ).
That's in Israel.
He would also be ruling the nations with a rod of iron.
That's by His law and His rules, as Governor over the entire earth.
This perfectly fits the prophecy in Daniel 2:31-45.
Amen.
But you still haven't addressed the language of Revelation 19, Revelation 20, Zechariah 14, Isaiah 2 and Micah 4.
On a side note, it has always puzzled me why so many people who agree with "TULIP" also agree with John Calvin's other teachings...
Like infant baptism and a-millennialism...
which are both taught by the Roman Catholic Church even today.
Baptism is only for those who have demonstrated belief on Christ,
and a-millennialism robs the Lord of His right to rule from the throne of His father David as the Scriptures declare.
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David
Gen.
Genesis 37:9
And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.
Did the literal sun , moon, and stars bow down to Joseph? or did it have to do with him ruling?
isa13;
6 Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:
8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
Were these things literal cosmic events, or was life as they knew it being changed?
isa34;
4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.
6 The sword of the Lord is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the Lord hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.
7 And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.
8 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
mt24;
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
joel2;
10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the Lord your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.
28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.
fulfilled in Acts2:16
joel3:
15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
16 The Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the Lord will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
17 So shall ye know that I am the Lord your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.
18 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth out of the house of the Lord, and shall water the valley of Shittim.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
I don't see what the problem is, Tony.
Some of the things in Isaiah 13 haven't happened yet and some are literal cosmic events, just as Revelation tells us.
Neither has Isaiah 2, Zechariah 14, Micah 4 and Revelation 19-Revelation 20.
It's speaking of the generation of people who will be present when those things happen, Tony.
Notice the sequence of events, and that verse 34 happens in context with verses 29-31 in Matthew 24...
The generation that is alive during and immediately after the tribulation of those days.
Question:
Have the things in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 been carried out...all of them?
The only thing that I see that has happened is the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D.
Anti-Christ has not yet come, and the abomination of desolation has not yet taken place.
There are still wars and rumors of wars, and there are still pestilences and earthquakes that are foreshadowing His coming again.
There has been no Tribulation ( time of Jacob's trouble, Jeremiah 30:7...also see Matthew 24:21, Daniel 12:1 ) such as the world has never seen before...
Worse than the plagues of Egypt and that affects the entire world.
So, I don't see that everything in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 has been fulfilled, my friend.
There is the greater part of Revelation yet to occur.
Good evening to you.
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"Dave G,
David, we can always disagree, but I am offering another way that many see these truths.
Hebrews12:22-29 says He is ruling and speaking from Heaven;
I will highlight it here;
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh.
For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth,
much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
29 For our God is a consuming fire.
Amen.
Peter says David is not ruling but Jesus is.
This text identifies the heavenly Zion and jerusalem.
The earthly Jerusalem is no longer the Holy Place.
The rule of God has been started, right in the midst of His enemies;
110 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
2 The Lord shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
[/QUOTE]
David, we can always disagree, but I am offering another way that many see these truths.
If you say so, but I must politely disagree.
If He were ruling the earth right now, it wouldn't be the mess that it is.
It would fit the terms of the prophecies...the word of the Lord would be going forth from Jerusalem ( Zion ).
That's in Israel.
He would also be ruling the nations with a rod of iron.
That's His law and His rules, as Governor over the entire earth.
This perfectly fits the prophecy in Daniel 2:31-45.
Hebrews12:22-29 says He is ruling and speaking from Heaven;
I will highlight it here;
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh.
For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth,
much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
29 For our God is a consuming fire.
Amen.
Peter says David is not ruling but Jesus is.
This text identifies the heavenly Zion and jerusalem.
The earthly Jerusalem is no longer the Holy Place.
The rule of God has been started, right in the midst of His enemies;
110 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
2 The Lord shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
[/QUOTE]
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Do these 144k have free will, or are they preordained? Is it possible that there could be 143,932? Or will it be 144,000 no more or less?
Scripture More Accurately
Well-Known Member
Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
When exactly did Jesus come from heaven on a white horse with His armies on white horses to smite the nations? This passage does not just say that He will rule; it specifically says that rule will be after He smites the nations. When and how exactly has Jesus come from heaven and smitten the nations?
Scripture More Accurately
Well-Known Member
Your first question is irrelevant to this discussion.
I do not have any biblical reason to hold that it will be a number other than 144,000. Do you?
Dave G
Your answer is Satan is not bound because it doesn't look like it to you. Bad things still happen to good people.
My answer is Satan is bound because Christ said He is.
The evidence? What Christ said would be the evidence. The advance of the Gospel.
Thank you for surrendering to the doctrine of Election.
Scripture More Accurately
Well-Known Member
I did not do any such thing. It is irrelevant to this discussion.
Scripture More Accurately
Well-Known Member
Wrong. Christ never taught that the advance of the gospel meant that Satan was bound so that he cannot deceive the nations any more in the sense that Revelation 20 talks about. You wrongly link those truths.
In fact, Acts 26:18 specifically refutes the notion that Satan has already been bound in the sense that Rev. 20 talks about (when the 70 were sent out, as you have previously asserted was when it happened) when Paul testified in Acts 26:15-18 that Christ told him that He was sending him to the Gentiles to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light and from the power of Satan unto God.
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You did, and it is most relevant. To have an exact power of ten not once, but twelve times is irrefutably the result of design and determination.
If it isn't election, then it's symbol. I say it's both. You realize the epistles say that believers are the Temple of the living God? Practically every prescription regarding the construction of Gods dwelling was a factor of twelve: 48 boards in 96 sockets comprised the meeting place. No more, no less. 60 posts encompassed the court. No more no less. That's four, eight, and five twelves respectively. Twelve patriarchs. Twelve tribes. Twelve gems. Twelve Apostles. Twelve foundations. Twelve gates.
Now tell me again that determination--Election--isnt relevant.
All one needs to do is read the Scriptures.
Tell me again you have no Scriptural reason to think the number is symbolic.
It's the number of the redeemed. And as 1000 is the number of completion, 12000 times 12?
You can't escape. It's either election, or not literally 144k.
You have no alternative. Which is it?
What is Redemption but the spoiling of Satan's house?
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