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Has the KJV been proven to be based on a superior text?

Logos1560

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Has the KJV-only claim that the KJV is based on a superior original-language text been proven to be factually true or has it been merely assumed to be true?

D. A. Waite asserted that “the Textus Receptus is based on over 5,210 Greek manuscripts or over 99% of those preserved for us” and that “the Textus Receptus manuscripts are almost perfect mirrors of one another” (Central Seminary Refuted, pp. 67, 95). D. A. Waite wrote: “The Textus Receptus manuscripts vary in spellings somewhat. Let them vary” (BJU’s Errors, p. 43). D. A. Waite again claimed that “the Textus Receptus is based on over 99% (over 5,210) of the Greek manuscripts extant today” (Fundamentalist Distortions, p. 53). Waite contended that “the ‘Textus Receptus’ was the result of the agreement of thousands of Greek manuscripts” (Critical Answer to Michael Sproul’s, p. 132).

Seeming to contradict his own unproven claims about “a type of text known as the Traditional Text,” D. A. Waite asserted: “There is no proof whatsoever that Greek manuscripts are genealogically related and in ‘families.’ I agree with Dean John William Burgon who stated that all the Greek manuscripts are like ’orphaned children.’ You don’t know which manuscript goes with which family so how can you classify them as belonging to one another” (Critical Answer to Michael, p. 118). D. A. Waite claimed that “there is no such thing as ’Text type’” (Ibid.). Waite suggested that his readers should buy Burgon’s book and “see the proof that all of the surviving manuscripts are like orphan children with no provable connection with one another and certainly not grouped as ‘Text-types’” (p. 98). Waite asserted: “Each manuscript is a lone and independent document” (p. 50). Waite acknowledged that “nobody on this earth has examined all the manuscripts that we have” (p. 121). John William Burgon as edited by Edward Miller noted that “of multitudes of them [MSS copies] that survive, hardly any have been copied from any of the rest” and that “they are discovered to differ among themselves in countless unimportant particulars” (Traditional Text, p. 46). Peter Johnston wrote: “Yet as Burgon pointed out in the last century each surviving Byzantine manuscript is a genuine individual” (Green, Unholy Hands, Vol. II, p. 10). Wilbur Pickering noted that “the main lesson to be drawn from the variation among ‘Byzantine’ MSS is the one noted by Lake and Burgon—they are orphans, independent witnesses; at least in their generation” (Identity of NT Text IV, p. 42). Waite asserted: “There are no such things as ‘families’ of Greek manuscripts” (Fundamental Deception, p. 56). Waite declared: “I do not believe there are any ‘text-types’ of Greek manuscripts, only individual manuscripts” (Bob Jones University’s Errors, p. 11). Waite claimed: “Each manuscript is like an orphaned child with no ability to say where it came from” (p. 41). Waite asserted: “Manuscripts of the Greek language are simply manuscripts. None are related to each other” (Central Seminary Refuted, p. 53). Waite declared: “”Every manuscript is independent of all others,” and Every manuscript stands alone” (Critical Answer to James Price’s, pp. 64, 72). Michael Bates asserted: “There are no families; there are only manuscripts” (Inspiration, Preservation, p. 218).

According to a consistent, just application of Waite’s very own statements, how could he accurately claim that “the Textus Receptus is from a type of text” [a text type] known as the Traditional Text that is represented by 5,210 “orphan” Greek manuscripts that cannot be classified as belonging to one another and that have not all been carefully examined and completely or totally collated?

Was Waite’s claim about 5,210 Greek manuscripts mere assumption or speculation since he cannot prove it to be true by presenting the results of any complete, accurate collation of all those 5,210 manuscripts that demonstrate all of them to be “almost perfect mirrors of one another”?

Can Waite back up his assertion and name or identify all the specific “thousands of Greek manuscripts” that agree with each and every reading of the Textus Receptus? Since Erasmus, Stephanus, and Beza did not examine and collate 5,210 Greek manuscripts, their varying Textus Receptus editions cannot factually be said to be based on them. The textually-varying printed editions of the Textus Receptus were based on an imperfect and incomplete collation of less than 100 Greek NT manuscripts along with an edition of the Latin Vulgate of Jerome. Some readings found in the Textus Receptus are found in no known Greek NT manuscripts so that it is impossible for those readings to be based on thousands of Greek NT manuscripts.

Is it a serious distortion or even a falsehood to claim that the varying TR editions were based on 5,210 Greek manuscripts?

Do some of Waite’s claims concerning 5,210 manuscripts and the TR contradict his own assertion that Greek NT manuscripts are not related to each other and that every manuscript stands alone?

Did Waite in effect contradict his own assertion that “there is no such thing as ‘Text type” when he tries to advocate “a type of text”?

Does some repeat D. A. Waite's claims concerning a superior text without proving them to be true?
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Has the KJV-only claim that the KJV is based on a superior original-language text been proven to be factually true or has it been merely assumed to be true?

D. A. Waite asserted that “the Textus Receptus is based on over 5,210 Greek manuscripts or over 99% of those preserved for us” and that “the Textus Receptus manuscripts are almost perfect mirrors of one another” (Central Seminary Refuted, pp. 67, 95). D. A. Waite wrote: “The Textus Receptus manuscripts vary in spellings somewhat. Let them vary” (BJU’s Errors, p. 43). D. A. Waite again claimed that “the Textus Receptus is based on over 99% (over 5,210) of the Greek manuscripts extant today” (Fundamentalist Distortions, p. 53). Waite contended that “the ‘Textus Receptus’ was the result of the agreement of thousands of Greek manuscripts” (Critical Answer to Michael Sproul’s, p. 132).

Seeming to contradict his own unproven claims about “a type of text known as the Traditional Text,” D. A. Waite asserted: “There is no proof whatsoever that Greek manuscripts are genealogically related and in ‘families.’ I agree with Dean John William Burgon who stated that all the Greek manuscripts are like ’orphaned children.’ You don’t know which manuscript goes with which family so how can you classify them as belonging to one another” (Critical Answer to Michael, p. 118). D. A. Waite claimed that “there is no such thing as ’Text type’” (Ibid.). Waite suggested that his readers should buy Burgon’s book and “see the proof that all of the surviving manuscripts are like orphan children with no provable connection with one another and certainly not grouped as ‘Text-types’” (p. 98). Waite asserted: “Each manuscript is a lone and independent document” (p. 50). Waite acknowledged that “nobody on this earth has examined all the manuscripts that we have” (p. 121). John William Burgon as edited by Edward Miller noted that “of multitudes of them [MSS copies] that survive, hardly any have been copied from any of the rest” and that “they are discovered to differ among themselves in countless unimportant particulars” (Traditional Text, p. 46). Peter Johnston wrote: “Yet as Burgon pointed out in the last century each surviving Byzantine manuscript is a genuine individual” (Green, Unholy Hands, Vol. II, p. 10). Wilbur Pickering noted that “the main lesson to be drawn from the variation among ‘Byzantine’ MSS is the one noted by Lake and Burgon—they are orphans, independent witnesses; at least in their generation” (Identity of NT Text IV, p. 42). Waite asserted: “There are no such things as ‘families’ of Greek manuscripts” (Fundamental Deception, p. 56). Waite declared: “I do not believe there are any ‘text-types’ of Greek manuscripts, only individual manuscripts” (Bob Jones University’s Errors, p. 11). Waite claimed: “Each manuscript is like an orphaned child with no ability to say where it came from” (p. 41). Waite asserted: “Manuscripts of the Greek language are simply manuscripts. None are related to each other” (Central Seminary Refuted, p. 53). Waite declared: “”Every manuscript is independent of all others,” and Every manuscript stands alone” (Critical Answer to James Price’s, pp. 64, 72). Michael Bates asserted: “There are no families; there are only manuscripts” (Inspiration, Preservation, p. 218).

According to a consistent, just application of Waite’s very own statements, how could he accurately claim that “the Textus Receptus is from a type of text” [a text type] known as the Traditional Text that is represented by 5,210 “orphan” Greek manuscripts that cannot be classified as belonging to one another and that have not all been carefully examined and completely or totally collated?

Was Waite’s claim about 5,210 Greek manuscripts mere assumption or speculation since he cannot prove it to be true by presenting the results of any complete, accurate collation of all those 5,210 manuscripts that demonstrate all of them to be “almost perfect mirrors of one another”?

Can Waite back up his assertion and name or identify all the specific “thousands of Greek manuscripts” that agree with each and every reading of the Textus Receptus? Since Erasmus, Stephanus, and Beza did not examine and collate 5,210 Greek manuscripts, their varying Textus Receptus editions cannot factually be said to be based on them. The textually-varying printed editions of the Textus Receptus were based on an imperfect and incomplete collation of less than 100 Greek NT manuscripts along with an edition of the Latin Vulgate of Jerome. Some readings found in the Textus Receptus are found in no known Greek NT manuscripts so that it is impossible for those readings to be based on thousands of Greek NT manuscripts.

Is it a serious distortion or even a falsehood to claim that the varying TR editions were based on 5,210 Greek manuscripts?

Do some of Waite’s claims concerning 5,210 manuscripts and the TR contradict his own assertion that Greek NT manuscripts are not related to each other and that every manuscript stands alone?

Did Waite in effect contradict his own assertion that “there is no such thing as ‘Text type” when he tries to advocate “a type of text”?

Does some repeat D. A. Waite's claims concerning a superior text without proving them to be true?
Can he or anyone else present to us a TR that gives in full to us all of the underlining basis for the Kjv 1611?
 

Logos1560

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter

It has not been proven. It is only assumed or claimed by KJV-only advocates. The many KJV-only books that I have read do not prove this claim to be true.

You claim that it has been proven so please present the evidence that proves it.
 

atpollard

Well-Known Member
It has not been proven. It is only assumed or claimed by KJV-only advocates. The many KJV-only books that I have read do not prove this claim to be true.

You claim that it has been proven so please present the evidence that proves it.
That was not the title of the thread.

Jesus has been "proven" to be God incarnate. Some accept the proof and some reject the proof. If I ask "Has Jesus been proven to be God incarnate?", the answer is "Yes" ... even if you are an atheist and reject every bit of it.

The supporters of the KJV have offered their support. I, among others, have rejected it. That does not mean that their "proof" has not been presented. You have read and rejected the proof that you have already read, so you will read and reject any proof that I might present. That does not mean that the proof has not been presented, it means that you and I have not found that proof convincing. Since I am not a KJVO, I have no reason to convince anyone of anything.

Thus, I stand by answering the simple question that was asked with a simple answer:

Q. "Has the KJV-only claim that the KJV is based on a superior original-language text been proven to be factually true or has it been merely assumed to be true?"
A. "Proven."​

Your OP is deliberately "looking for a fight" and it is unlikely that any KJVO advocate will view it as anything but "trolling", but "I got no dog in that fight".
 

atpollard

Well-Known Member
Can he or anyone else present to us a TR that gives in full to us all of the underlining basis for the Kjv 1611?
Can anyone present a to us a manuscript "that gives in full to us all of the underlining basis for the" (insert any modern translation)?
Does that PROVE that all modern translations are NOT INSPIRED?

I am not a KJVO, I am just curious if there is as double standard being applied?
 

Logos1560

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The supporters of the KJV have offered their support.

Supporters of the KJV have not offered sufficient, sound evidence or proof for their unproven assertion that the KJV is based on a superior original-language text. They do not back up their unproven assumptions and claims with sufficient sound evidence.

I have read D. A. Waite's book where he made the claim that many other KJV-only advocates repeat, and he did not prove his claim to be true. KJV-only advocates try to assume a way too much from a way too little evidence. They assume some of their claims by use of fallacies such as begging the question.
 

37818

Well-Known Member
That was not the title of the thread.

Jesus has been "proven" to be God incarnate. Some accept the proof and some reject the proof. If I ask "Has Jesus been proven to be God incarnate?", the answer is "Yes" ... even if you are an atheist and reject every bit of it.

The supporters of the KJV have offered their support. I, among others, have rejected it. That does not mean that their "proof" has not been presented. You have read and rejected the proof that you have already read, so you will read and reject any proof that I might present. That does not mean that the proof has not been presented, it means that you and I have not found that proof convincing. Since I am not a KJVO, I have no reason to convince anyone of anything.

Thus, I stand by answering the simple question that was asked with a simple answer:

Q. "Has the KJV-only claim that the KJV is based on a superior original-language text been proven to be factually true or has it been merely assumed to be true?"
A. "Proven."​

Your OP is deliberately "looking for a fight" and it is unlikely that any KJVO advocate will view it as anything but "trolling", but "I got no dog in that fight".
It is a fact that most, not every, variant New Testament readings the KJV has that most of the popular modern translations have changed, the KJV readings are supported by the majority of NT Greek texts.
 

atpollard

Well-Known Member
It is a fact that most, not every, variant New Testament readings the KJV has that most of the popular modern translations have changed, the KJV readings are supported by the majority of NT Greek texts.
Combining the words "prove" and "superior" in any sentence is a recipe for conflict. "Prove" implies an objective fact with no room for opinions. When I "prove" the Pythagorean Theorem, there is no mathematical uncertainty that the formula is correct. On the other hand, what criteria is the basis for an assumption of "superiority"?

Superior could mean first in time, so was the KJV translation based on the "first" sources compared to later translations. Even by that criteria, the answer is both YES and NO. It cannot be argued that the Textus Receptus of the KJV does not predate both the Critical Text (1881 by Brooke Foss Westcott and Fenton J. A. Hort) and the ever changing "Majority Text" method. So the TR used for the KJV was the first "Majority Text" (making it "Superior" by one definition of the word). On the other hand, older manuscripts have been discovered, so it is not based on the absolute "oldest" manuscripts.

This still has not asked the question of whether the absolute oldest copy is really the "best" copy. What if it disagree s with the majority of other copies? What if it was recovered in a cache of Gnostic writings?

So the OP seeks to PROVE a subjective matter as if it were an objective FACT, and then cheers his ability to reject another person's subjective evidence as "not objective facts".
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Can anyone present a to us a manuscript "that gives in full to us all of the underlining basis for the" (insert any modern translation)?
Does that PROVE that all modern translations are NOT INSPIRED?

I am not a KJVO, I am just curious if there is as double standard being applied?
NO translation is inspired
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
It is a fact that most, not every, variant New Testament readings the KJV has that most of the popular modern translations have changed, the KJV readings are supported by the majority of NT Greek texts.
That is important IF the Majority text is the best Greek text though!
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Combining the words "prove" and "superior" in any sentence is a recipe for conflict. "Prove" implies an objective fact with no room for opinions. When I "prove" the Pythagorean Theorem, there is no mathematical uncertainty that the formula is correct. On the other hand, what criteria is the basis for an assumption of "superiority"?

Superior could mean first in time, so was the KJV translation based on the "first" sources compared to later translations. Even by that criteria, the answer is both YES and NO. It cannot be argued that the Textus Receptus of the KJV does not predate both the Critical Text (1881 by Brooke Foss Westcott and Fenton J. A. Hort) and the ever changing "Majority Text" method. So the TR used for the KJV was the first "Majority Text" (making it "Superior" by one definition of the word). On the other hand, older manuscripts have been discovered, so it is not based on the absolute "oldest" manuscripts.

This still has not asked the question of whether the absolute oldest copy is really the "best" copy. What if it disagree s with the majority of other copies? What if it was recovered in a cache of Gnostic writings?

So the OP seeks to PROVE a subjective matter as if it were an objective FACT, and then cheers his ability to reject another person's subjective evidence as "not objective facts".
Those holding to Kjvo though many times just state wild unsubstantiated things regarding the other Greek texts and those who view them as being superior!
 

atpollard

Well-Known Member
Among the manuscripts that exists, Daniel B. Wallace writes:
There are approximately 300,000 textual variants among New Testament manuscripts. The Majority Text differs from the Textus Receptus in almost 2,000 places. So the agreement is better than 99 percent. But the Majority Text differs from the modern critical text in only about 6,500 places. In other words the two texts agree almost 98 percent of the time. Not only that, but the vast majority of these differences are so minor that they neither show up in translation nor affect exegesis. Consequently the majority text and modern critical texts are very much alike, in both quality and quantity.
-Wallace, Daniel B. "The Majority Text and the Original Text: Are They Identical?" in Bibliotheca Sacra. April-June 1991, pp.157-158. Quoted in Bob and Gretchen Passantino. "New Age Bible Versions: A Critical Review." Cornerstone. Vol. 23, Issue 104.​
Since the KJV is based on the TR, which differs from the Majority Text in 2000 places while the Critical Text of Wescott and Hort that sought to "fix" the KJV and gave us the early modern translations differs from the Majority Text in 6500 places, a quantitative argument can be made that the TR was qualitatively superior to the CT that replaced it. While not a KJVO smoking gun of divine inspiration of a specific translation over all others, it does support a claim that the KJV is based on a superior text (the TR vs the CT).
 

atpollard

Well-Known Member
Those holding to Kjvo though many times just state wild unsubstantiated things regarding the other Greek texts and those who view them as being superior!
Everyone makes wild and unsubstantiated claims on the internet.
One responds by asking for evidence to support the claim.
 

37818

Well-Known Member
That is important IF the Majority text is the best Greek text though!
There is the common readings between all the manuscripts that is 100%. So what then should be more likely variant? An old long rejected reading with a few manuscripts. Or the common handed down reading? There are other factors. Which reading best explains the variant.
 
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