Has the KJV been proven to be based on a superior text?

[paul kirkpatrick]

Actually I'm more of a returning BB member. I usta wuz ktn4eg, but had to leave BB due to a series of medical issues that kept me away from BB. I still have most of them today, but, IMO, I missed BB. I love reading her many Forums & particularly this one. Maybe it's because, beginning in 1974, I tackled the "controversy" of whether or not "Baptism" was a misleading word the KJV translators invented to confuse people over that ordinance's correct mode. You can find my non-copyrighted research efforts on the 1st Baptist Church of Harrison OH's website. Pastor Ronnie Wolfe (As he put it, "A 'Wolfe' in a sheep's clothing,") was one of my CBC instructors. Although he has had polio before the polio vaccine was made available in the 1950's, he never let that fact deter him from being a very good pianist & Bible college instructor as well! I learned much from both his teaching and his determination to serve Jesus in spite of his physical issues. BTW, that "joined" date might need to be re-adjusted. but that's up to you.

 

[Logos1560]

That appears to be something from your book, but maybe was posted here as well.

It has been posted here although it may include additional quotations not in earlier editions.
My quotations from my writings have not been from my first book as written in 2003 for many years.

I kept doing additional research, adding to my computer file for that book quotations from additional books and also making many revisions to what I had earlier written. If I had a second edition printed of my 2003 book, it would probably be over 200 pages longer. In addition, I have written several more books since 2003.

The quotations included in my post would include statements from KJV-only authors made in books that I obtained and read after 2003 or in books printed after 2003. My writings now may include quotations from KJV-only books printed the last two or three years. My quotation was actually from a new book that I am presently working on.

 

[rlvaughn]

BTW, that "joined" date might need to be re-adjusted. but that's up to you.

Probably something a moderator would have to tackle, if it is important to you to have it adjusted.

 

[rlvaughn]

It has been posted here although it may include additional quotations not in earlier editions.
My quotations from my writings have not been from my first book as written in 2003 for many years.

My main point in the context of this thread is that most readers here are formulating what they think of your view of the KJV and KJV-Only based on what they read that is posted here, as opposed to the entirety of your writings, or your web site.

 

[Logos1560]

My main point in the context of this thread is that most readers here are formulating what they think of your view of the KJV and KJV-Only based on what they read that is posted here, as opposed to the entirety of your writings, or your web site.

There may be KJV-only readers who formulate what they think of my view by what KJV-only authors have asserted about my 2003 book, and they may not even read completely my posts and have never read my book. They may have read the biased KJV-only review of my 2003 book by Will McKinney, who has posted here.

Just knowing that I wrote a book disagreeing with KJV-only claims may be all it takes for some KJV-only readers to be negative towards anything I state and to jump to an incorrect KJV-only conclusion that I am supposedly anti-KJV.

In his 2009 Ruckman Reference Bible, Peter Ruckman listed my book in his claimed "The Unbeliever's Bibliography" (p. 1726). In his Appendix 61 entitled "Modern Corrupters of the Word of God," Peter Ruckman also listed me in his sampling of Apostate Laodiceans, which also included Dr. Bruce Lackey and David Cloud (p. 1783).

On the other hand, while KJV-only advocate D. A. Waite wrote a response to every other book that disagreed with a KJV-only view within months after that book was first published, he ordered a copy of my book years ago and never wrote a response to it. Perhaps he saw how my 2003 book was based on acceptance of the traditional Hebrew Masoretic text and the Textus Receptus and how my scripturally-based position was as close to his defense of the KJV as possible without acceptance of the errors of KJV-only teaching that he could not respond to it without exposing the problems with some incorrect claims that he himself had made.

 

[Reformed1689]

Has the KJV-only claim that the KJV is based on a superior original-language text been proven to be factually true or has it been merely assumed to be true?

That's only assumed to be true by KJVO

 

[Logos1560]

That's only assumed to be true by KJVO

Yes, that claim is only assumed by KJV-only and also perhaps by TR-only, but it has not been proven to be true.

 

[Reformed1689]

Yes, that claim is only assumed by KJV-only and also perhaps by TR-only, but it has not been proven to be true.

Sorry yes, I ws trying to say the assumption has no merit at all in reality.

 

[Stratton7]

This thread is intended for people to present evidence for the claim that the KJV is based on a superior text if they assert that the claim is true or proven.

Another poster (Stratton7) had made this claim in a recent thread (that was on page 7) without offering any proof for it [besides a link to Waite's writing].

Knowing that that thread would likely be closed while I was at work second shift (since threads are closed after they reach page 7), I started this new thread concerning that poster's claim to see if he would offer evidence for it and back it up.

That’s interesting that you made a thread just for me (indirectly) and only mentioning it towards the end of page 2!
Mind you, the link was the evidence. A several page pdf. It’s also from a book that you’ve said that have and read from D. A. Waite. That being said, if you are making this post looking for evidence on the subject of Defending the King James Bible (which you already disagree w/) or KJB “proof,” then it’s obvious you have already made up your mind and this thread is not intended for genuine information. But as I’ve noticed, it doesn’t seem you are after looking for any real information, but that you just want to find something to refute as it pertains to the KJB. With all do respect, it’s why I haven’t responded to your thread earlier.

 

[Paul from Antioch]

That’s interesting that you made a thread just for me (indirectly) and only mentioning it towards the end of page 2!
Mind you, the link was the evidence. A several page pdf. It’s also from a book that you’ve said that have and read from D. A. Waite. That being said, if you are making this post looking for evidence on the subject of Defending the King James Bible (which you already disagree w/) or KJB “proof,” then it’s obvious you have already made up your mind and this thread is not intended for genuine information. But as I’ve noticed, it doesn’t seem you are after looking for any real information, but that you just want to find something to refute as it pertains to the KJB. With all do respect, it’s why I haven’t responded to your thread earlier.

 

[Paul from Antioch]

That’s interesting that you made a thread just for me (indirectly) and only mentioning it towards the end of page 2!
Mind you, the link was the evidence. A several page pdf. It’s also from a book that you’ve said that have and read from D. A. Waite. That being said, if you are making this post looking for evidence on the subject of Defending the King James Bible (which you already disagree w/) or KJB “proof,” then it’s obvious you have already made up your mind and this thread is not intended for genuine information. But as I’ve noticed, it doesn’t seem you are after looking for any real information, but that you just want to find something to refute as it pertains to the KJB. With all do respect, it’s why I haven’t responded to your thread earlier.

 

[Paul from Antioch]

I see that my friend (and you ARE my friend!) hasn't seen fit to respond to my post in 3.5 days. If I've offended you, my dear Brother, then I ask your forgiveness. As I thought I indicated in my thread, I'm NOT a "KJV hater," nor do I wish to put down anyone who holds to a KJVO position. If you love & use the KJV, that's fine with me. I use the KJV myself at times. All that I was trying to relate was that any version that's made by fallible men ("Of whom I am chief!") can have some errors in it because it's done by humans. In reality the Holy Spirit only inspired the original Hebrew & Greek autographs & thus, try as we may, there can be, shall we say, "Shortcomings" in anything that fallible humans attempt to produce. I bear no grudge to those who contend for the KJV version. They are brothers & sisters in Christ, and, as the song tells us, "He (or She) ain't heavy....He's my brother (or sister)!" I've been proven to be wrong many times in my almost 75 years of my life, and hopefully I've learned from those many times. If I've come on too strong for some, then I seek your forgiveness. As members of the Great Shepherd's flock, I contend (at least for me) that, just as I know I've done, can give folks a wrong impression. That's one area in which I'm a proven ace. Our enemy Satan & his helpers have had more experience in deceiving & misleading folks (& I'm Exhibit A) & then divert them from modelling a poor & humble spirit before a lost & dying world. We've been given soooo much from "Our Father Who Art in Heaven" which I don't appreciate, much less put into practice. I do love the spirit of Brothers John Ankerberg and John Weldon have displayed in their booklet "The Facts on the King James Only Debate" display. We have so much in common because of Jesus's shed Blood that we should not "Major on the Minors" instead of "Majoring on the Majors." How many times does His Word COMMAND us to, "YE shall BE MY witnesses" to a lost and hell-bound world of people ? I can think of at least 2 of them myself. Our lives don't need to be governed by this attitude. If your house was on fire, would you tell those fire fighters, "Sorry, your boots aren't the same brand as mine are....Go back from whence you came and put on the proper colored boots before you fight the flames by which my house is being consumed!!" Jesus gave me an object lesson of using that unnamed lad who happened to have his lunch in his hands, but he gave it to Him, and Jesus fed at least 5,000 men, plus the fact that God created us with two ears but only one mouth. Maybe He was trying to tell us something. Selah.

 

[rlvaughn]

I see that my friend (and you ARE my friend!) hasn't seen fit to respond to my post in 3.5 days. If I've offended you, my dear Brother, then I ask your forgiveness.

Paul, not sure who you are referring to, but since you quoted a post of mine in your post #60, thought I would respond. Nothing you have posted has offended me, and no apology is needed. If you are talking to someone else, I apologize for butting in. Have a blessed day.

 

[Stratton7]

I see that my friend (and you ARE my friend!) hasn't seen fit to respond to my post in 3.5 days. If I've offended you, my dear Brother, then I ask your forgiveness. As I thought I indicated in my thread, I'm NOT a "KJV hater," nor do I wish to put down anyone who holds to a KJVO position. If you love & use the KJV, that's fine with me. I use the KJV myself at times. All that I was trying to relate was that any version that's made by fallible men ("Of whom I am chief!") can have some errors in it because it's done by humans. In reality the Holy Spirit only inspired the original Hebrew & Greek autographs & thus, try as we may, there can be, shall we say, "Shortcomings" in anything that fallible humans attempt to produce. I bear no grudge to those who contend for the KJV version. They are brothers & sisters in Christ, and, as the song tells us, "He (or She) ain't heavy....He's my brother (or sister)!" I've been proven to be wrong many times in my almost 75 years of my life, and hopefully I've learned from those many times. If I've come on too strong for some, then I seek your forgiveness. As members of the Great Shepherd's flock, I contend (at least for me) that, just as I know I've done, can give folks a wrong impression. That's one area in which I'm a proven ace. Our enemy Satan & his helpers have had more experience in deceiving & misleading folks (& I'm Exhibit A) & then divert them from modelling a poor & humble spirit before a lost & dying world. We've been given soooo much from "Our Father Who Art in Heaven" which I don't appreciate, much less put into practice. I do love the spirit of Brothers John Ankerberg and John Weldon have displayed in their booklet "The Facts on the King James Only Debate" display. We have so much in common because of Jesus's shed Blood that we should not "Major on the Minors" instead of "Majoring on the Majors." How many times does His Word COMMAND us to, "YE shall BE MY witnesses" to a lost and hell-bound world of people ? I can think of at least 2 of them myself. Our lives don't need to be governed by this attitude. If your house was on fire, would you tell those fire fighters, "Sorry, your boots aren't the same brand as mine are....Go back from whence you came and put on the proper colored boots before you fight the flames by which my house is being consumed!!" Jesus gave me an object lesson of using that unnamed lad who happened to have his lunch in his hands, but he gave it to Him, and Jesus fed at least 5,000 men, plus the fact that God created us with two ears but only one mouth. Maybe He was trying to tell us something. Selah.

I might add to what rlvaugn has said, that you quoted me in post 70 and 71 and I’m not sure if you’re referring to me. I’m in no way offended by you and I appreciate your last post. (72)
But again, if not referring to me, apologies.

 

[Paul from Antioch]

I might add to what rlvaugn has said, that you quoted me in post 70 and 71 and I’m not sure if you’re referring to me. I’m in no way offended by you and I appreciate your last post. (72)
But again, if not referring to me, apologies.

Paul, not sure who you are referring to, but since you quoted a post of mine in your post #60, thought I would respond. Nothing you have posted has offended me, and no apology is needed. If you are talking to someone else, I apologize for butting in. Have a blessed day.

 

[Paul from Antioch]

My remarks weren't directed to any particular person as such. I merely wish that ALL sides of this (or any other "debate" here on BB be kept in mind that one of the things God hates is "He who causes division among the brethen be it with a local church or, in these instances, on line where just about any person can read. I've been on BB before with the ID of ktn4eg but had to temporarily cease due to several medical issues. PS: I AM Paul & I do live in Antioch, which happens to be a suburb of Nashville TN. But I believe THE other Paul from the other Antioch would probably write about the same thing; in fact II Corinthians tends to spend a lot of verses addressing the same thing 20+ centuries ago. Having only a BA in Bible & Christian Education (& that was way back in 1976!) +an MA in History in 1981 (My MA degree was from Austin Peay STATE Univ.) I've not been trained in all the niceties of textual criticism. OTOH I've personally witnessed (As a 1.5 YO in Christ) what lengths some Christians will go to "split" fellowship with one another & result in "Where 2 or 3 are gathered together in My name..." On Friday April 23 I'll be 55 YO in Christ's family & in 2.5 weeks from then I'll turn 75 YO in my "First Birthday" as a human being. It breaks my heart to see Brothers & Sisters involve themselves in such minor things as where the piano should be or, "I don't think that those flowers from Pastor (Fill in the Blanks) are very humble-minded!!" These sorts of things can (& have been) blown WAY out of proportion, especially in today's culture. The Father of Lies most be having lots of joy stirring things up amongst ourselves while his captives are suffering and dying because we who are supposed to be salt & light seem more to be unsavory & blinded by OUR perceived desires. There can be a time & place for differing with one another, but right now we need to make sure that EACH ONE of us has her/his armor on properly and our swords sharpened & fight our enemy in such a way that OUR SAVIOR and SHEPHERD would want. I'm not called to preach, but His Holy Spirit HAS called me to teach [Which I've tried to do in a formal JH-SH-& Bible College venue for almost 20 years}. Yes, I've had my shares of lost battles, and most of you on BB could do the same. OTOH, THE Great Deceiver hasn't surrendered yet, and neither should we. God's Word tells us that "Our help comes from the LORD," and it does, but it's kinda hard to shake hands when we've got a clenched fist. Jesus had to wake up His disciples after He was talking to His Father...He shouldn't have to do the same in our time, should He? "That's my story..............and I'm stikkin with it!!"

 

[Logos1560]

But as I’ve noticed, it doesn’t seem you are after looking for any real information, but that you just want to find something to refute as it pertains to the KJB.

I am looking for real, genuine information/evidence, [real, sound, verifiable evidence for the unproven claim by Waite instead of mere assumption].
It was already demonstrated how Waite himself contradicts his own claim in other assertions.

 

[Paul from Antioch]

I am looking for real, genuine information/evidence, [real, sound, verifiable evidence for the unproven claim by Waite instead of mere assumption].
It was already demonstrated how Waite himself contradicts his own claim in other assertions.

 

[Paul from Antioch]

I'm not looking for anyone "to refute" about anything. Since my multitude of medical issues has kept me from posting anything on BB, I was (& still are) trying to do what I can to calm things down on BB. On this particular thread that some of my Brothers in Christ seem to want to do more than merely "debate" certain issues of which MAY be important in their place, BUT instead appear to have an attitude of, "I'm RIGHT and you are not only 100+%, but are FULL of misdirected source material(s) & should refrain from posting on any BB until you repent and cease & desist your HERESY(-IES)!"attitude Is this what our Savior & Shepherd of His flock should act before a lost & dying & therefore Hell bound? When I received Christ as my Personal Savior (Which date will be this coming Friday April 23rd.) I wasn't even 20 YO. Thankfully the Baptist church at which this occurred was of such merciful & gracious to this newly born infant that they didn't spend their time hurling innuendoes & accusations to a lost audience (Metropolitan BC was only 2 blocks from the entrance of the Univ of AZ, & often had college-aged students in her audience.), but Pastor Bowler didn't spend his time fretting over their appearance (Many of them were wearing the Hippy clothes that were in style among their age group.) or whether they had begun to question their need of receiving Jesus as Savior, etc. Although I was a member of MBC for only about a year's time B4 the USAF transferred me to Germany, I had enough experience to come to the conclusion that MBC's priorities were what I hoped would be reflected in me. Did I stumble & fall many times back then in trying to practice the lifestyle of what the Book of James wrote (& he was merely re-affirming what the Son of God did while He was here living amongst very "We're right on every single jot & tittle of the OT" not so Fair I Sees & we're Sad You See, but YOU, Mr so-called King of Kings and Lord of Lords that we're gonna kill you & thus rid ourselves of your "I'm-holier-than-you"!) attitude. Didn't Jesus teach & model for us what "Our Father Who Art in Heaven" wants us to? Again, I don't wish to set myself up as a standard by which my brothers and sisters need to model their lives. If anything, I'm more like that other Paul from that other Antioch said of his former lifestyle before Jesus came into his life. I don't WANT to point a finger of criticism at anyone, because were I to do so, I'd still have 3 fingers pointing to my heart. My prayer is only to try to calm down what I perceive is NOT what I'd want when I'm trying to be the witness for the One who died, was buried, & rose again all because "Jesus Loves Me, THIS I know." Selah.

 

[Logos1560]

But as it stands, I trust the Byzantine text types over the Western and Alexandrian.

You do not display complete trust in the Byzantine text type when you advocate a Textus Receptus only view.

The Textus Receptus departs from the Byzantine text type in some places (perhaps over 100) because of its reliance on an edition of the Latin Vulgate of Jerome. Jerome's Latin Vulgate is sometimes considered to be associated with the Western text type.

Perhaps the over 100 places where the TR edition of Stephanus is said to disagree with his 15 Byzantine Greek manuscripts is where Erasmus followed the Latin Vulgate.

F. H. A. Scrivener as edited by Edward Miller maintained that Stephanus’ text of the 1550 edition “is perpetually at variance with the majority” of his fifteen Greek manuscripts and the Complutensian, “and in 119 places with them all” (Plain Introduction to the Criticism, Vol. II, p. 190). Robert B. Waltz cited “Scrivener’s report that there are 119 places where all of Stephen’s manuscripts read against the TR, but Stephens still chose to print the rendering in previous TR editions” (Encyclopedia of NT Textual Criticism, p. 855).