In Denunciation of Denials of the Future Bodily Resurrection of the Dead

[timtofly]

We have received the Spirit of adoption but not yet the adoption.
The Spirit of adoption is an earnest (down-payment) (Eph.1:14) of the adoption of the body, which is yet to come in the future:
Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits [down-payment] of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, WAITING for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our BODY.
Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience WAIT for it.

I'm sorry brethren, but that the adoption of the body is a future reality, not a present one, is Bible basics taught in discipleship courses to new-born Christians.
Heb_5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

It happens at physical death. The souls leaves the tent of this corruptible flesh for the permanent physical incorruptible body. It is the body that is physical here or there. The spirit is spiritual, not the body. The body is permanent and incorruptible.

Physical death is the future for all of Adam's sinful flesh. Those in sheol are never promised a resurrection body. The dead stand before the GWT and then cast into the Lake of Fire. The church was resurrected at the Cross. Every time a soul leaves this body, it receives the resurrection incorruptible body immediately. We have bodies when present with the Lord Jesus Christ in His incorruptible permanent physical body.

 

[timtofly]

Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that we are all in agreement that there will be a future redemption of our physical bodies, right?

If anyone does not believe that is true, I would like to address that viewpoint and not continue discussion of what adoption does or does not mean in the various passages. Thanks.

The future is over, full stop when corruptible flesh dies. The living do not prevent the dead, period from that realization. In 2 Corinthians 5, Paul says absent from one body is to present in a permanent body. Those in Paradise do not wait for any more dead to be resurrected. The final resurrection of dead flesh is at the Second Coming, ie all those walking around on earth in dead flesh.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

So what exactly is a “body” in this context?

I agree that scripture seems clear that our bodies will be raised “on the last day”, but it also seems clear that our body will be transformed from its present “perishable” state to an eternal “imperishable” state.

If the events of Jesus body post-resurrection are any indication, then our new body will interact with time, space and matter differently than our present bodies do.

• So how “different” can a “body” be and still be called a “body”?
• Is it fair to call a body that walks through doors and appears and disappears from a location a “Spirit”?

No, it is not fair to ever call a body a spirit. As for any specifics about what our imperishable bodies will be like, God has not revealed that information to us. They will still be physical bodies in the same sense that Christ still has a physical body today. He is still fully man and fully God.

 

[timtofly]

Yes, we have been born anew, becoming a spiritual child of God, and we will receive the full benefits of our "sonship" at Christ's second coming. Any other claim is simply false unbiblical doctrine.

Well if you happen to transfer your soul, before the Second Coming, you will appreciate your new incorruptible body, instead of waiting without a body.

Those alive on earth in dead bodies will not hinder nor stop the exchange.

 

[timtofly]

How in the world can you say "now" when Paul the apostle says it's future:

Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

Because Paul was writing before he left for Paradise. He did not write post physical death. His future physical death was not realized.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Because Paul was writing before he left for Paradise. He did not write post physical death. His future physical death was not realized.

It is nonsense to claim that what Paul wrote under inspiration of the Spirit was no longer true once he died.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

The future is over, full stop when corruptible flesh dies. The living do not prevent the dead, period from that realization. In 2 Corinthians 5, Paul says absent from one body is to present in a permanent body. Those in Paradise do not wait for any more dead to be resurrected. The final resurrection of dead flesh is at the Second Coming, ie all those walking around on earth in dead flesh.

No, Paul does not say that absent from the body is to be present in a permanent body. You are seriously distorting the Scripture.

Your claims about those in Paradise are unbiblical and have no merit.

 

[percho]

The future is over, full stop when corruptible flesh dies. The living do not prevent the dead, period from that realization. In 2 Corinthians 5, Paul says absent from one body is to present in a permanent body. Those in Paradise do not wait for any more dead to be resurrected. The final resurrection of dead flesh is at the Second Coming, ie all those walking around on earth in dead flesh.

Do you realize that you totally negate any need or purpose for the resurrection, out of the dead?

Why would the Holy Spirit have inspired Paul to write Phil 3:11,12 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

Per Paul it is his and Israel's great hope and promise from God. Acts 26:6-8 And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God unto our fathers: Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews. Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead?

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

It happens at physical death. The souls leaves the tent of this corruptible flesh for the permanent physical incorruptible body. It is the body that is physical here or there. The spirit is spiritual, not the body. The body is permanent and incorruptible.

Physical death is the future for all of Adam's sinful flesh. Those in sheol are never promised a resurrection body. The dead stand before the GWT and then cast into the Lake of Fire. The church was resurrected at the Cross. Every time a soul leaves this body, it receives the resurrection incorruptible body immediately. We have bodies when present with the Lord Jesus Christ in His incorruptible permanent physical body.

No, the Bible does not teach that every time a soul leaves this body, it receives the resurrection incorruptible body immediately. You are setting forth unbiblical views.

 

[percho]

Those alive in dead bodies will not precede those dead in dead bodies and neither have those dead in dead bodies preceded those alive in dead bodies.

They will precede, together, at the same moment, in the twinkling of an eye at the last trump.

BTW where are those Thessalonians preceding, to? Going to after they meet the Lord in the air? What was the question those Thessalonians had concerning Larry, Curly and Mo their Christian friends who had died, in Christ?

What had Paul preached at Thessalonica?

Acts 17:7 YLT whom Jason hath received; and these all do contrary to the decrees of Caesar, saying another to be king -- Jesus.'

Looks like to me he preached Jesus as a king. King of what, I wonder? Well let's not wonder forever.

Acts 20:25 KJV And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.

Gee, Jesus as King of the kingdom of God.

I wonder if those Thessalonians wrote and asked Paul how and when were Larry, Curly and Mo were going to be in the kingdom of God?

1 Thes 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

How? Even so............
When? Verse's 15-17 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

It's not rocket science.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Writing late in the first century AD, the apostle John saw that there were under the altar the souls of them that will have been slain for Christ's sake:

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

The claim that all who will have died in the Lord after Paul's departure to heaven immediately will have received their incorruptible bodies is refuted by this explicit divine revelation that these believers who will be martyred in the future will not have received their incorruptible bodies immediately after they will have died.

 

[timtofly]

It is nonsense to claim that what Paul wrote under inspiration of the Spirit was no longer true once he died.

The point was it was not true, until he died. The future point is physical death. Not some long term operation at the Second Coming. At the Second Coming, the physical dead are still walking around on earth. They are the ones in need of a resurrection.

The resurrection is going from this dead corruptible body to a permanent incorruptible body in Paradise. That is what happened to the thief that day on the cross. Jesus promised him a resurrection on that last day which was the day of resurrection for all those who by faith in the OT were also part of the church and the physical resurrection to an incorruptible body.

No living person ever, not even in the first century could prevent such a resurrection.

 

[timtofly]

No, Paul does not say that absent from the body is to be present in a permanent body. You are seriously distorting the Scripture.

Your claims about those in Paradise are unbiblical and have no merit.

Your Bible should say:

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

Or does yours say:

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, eventually at the Second Coming, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

It is not I changing God's Word.

Does your Bible say:

"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be eventually at the Second Coming, with the Lord."

Or:

"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

We get an incorruptible permanent body immediately after the soul leaves this body.

 

[timtofly]

Do you realize that you totally negate any need or purpose for the resurrection, out of the dead?

Why would the Holy Spirit have inspired Paul to write Phil 3:11,12 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

Per Paul it is his and Israel's great hope and promise from God. Acts 26:6-8 And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God unto our fathers: Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews. Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead?

Paul also declares that at physical death resurrection is realized. It was only future until Paul physically died. Paul has not been agonizing and yearning for the resurrection for 1900+ years. No physical person on earth in a corruptible body prevented his resurrection, not even with their theology. That is the blessed hope that has been realized for the majority of the church.

 

[timtofly]

Writing late in the first century AD, the apostle John saw that there were under the altar the souls of them that will have been slain for Christ's sake:

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

The claim that all who will have died in the Lord after Paul's departure to heaven immediately will have received their incorruptible bodies is refuted by this explicit divine revelation that these believers who will be martyred in the future will not have received their incorruptible bodies immediately after they will have died.

A garment is not a body. This garment is the final "transformation". The spirit wrapped around the incorruptible body. This is glorification. This is putting on the light image of God. God is Light. "Ye are the light of the world", because the Holy Spirit shines bright in us. However once more restored to the image of God we will shine as the stars. Two births, two deaths, but one resurrection. The spirit is never resurrected, if the spirit dies. All firsts deal with the physical and body. All seconds deal with the spirit and the robe of white. The second birth is allowing the Holy Spirit to work in us. The second death is being cast into the lake of fire as in one's spirit is totally dead.

John in the 5th Seal is looking at the church about to be glorified immediately prior to the 6th Seal, the Second Coming. The 6th Seal is when the dead corruptible flesh of those in Christ walking around on earth, is resurrected to meet the Lord and the church in Paradise as one glorified body. It is a painless and smooth resurrection like the translation Enoch had walking with God, and was not found.

The church is then presented to God as complete. Revelation 7, in the very next chapter, shows the church in the temple of God, Paradise, day and night serving God. That is where we will be until the temple comes down as the New Jerusalem in the NHNE. Paradise was created for Adam's family. Adam was the one son of God called out, just like the church was called out. Adam had no choice, but all his descendants can choose to live forever in Paradise. Many have rejected the invitation to do so. They have listened to their own desires and Satan. Paradise was that city in Hebrews 11 promised us as our eternal home. Only those with incorruptible bodies can enter. It is a physical place and souls have to have a physical body. It is only spiritual in the sense we are blind to all that is spiritual around us. This dead corruptible body cannot see, nor sense anything about the spiritual side of creation, unless led by the Holy Spirit. That is why this current body needs to be resurrected if we are alive at the Second Coming. Paul called it a change. Most of the church has died and changed, as in resurrected. They are in Paradise right now, not in sheol or Abraham's bosom. That was emptied at the Cross, and they had to have incorruptible bodies to enter Paradise. On the Cross Christ promised Paradise was open and available, because Jesus declared, "It is finished." Jesus did not say, "death was starting, and you all have to wait until the Second Coming to be resurrected." Death ended that day, the last day resurrection was complete. All the OT church who heard those words, of Jesus came out of the graves in their incorruptible resurrection permanent bodies. Never to die again. Death was finished for them. Now the church waits in Paradise for glorification, the robe of white, a garment to put on over the incorruptible body. We have to change bodies. We do not put on a body over a body. No one is collecting their old bodies to change, because they would not be allowed to enter Paradise yet. Jesus told the thief that day, not 1991 years later.

 

[atpollard]

No, it is not fair to ever call a body a spirit.

Why?

Describe a ghost to me, and then describe what it's body can do. (appear and disappear, pass through solid objects)
... If it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, why is it "not fair to ever call it a duck"?

In our carnal reality we are comfortable thinking of the spiritual as less "real" than the physical.
I merely ask if it is possible that the spiritual is more "real" than than the perishable flesh that now entraps us?

[At least your topic seems to be back on track, which is all I hoped to assist with.]

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Why?

Describe a ghost to me, and then describe what it's body can do. (appear and disappear, pass through solid objects)
... If it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, why is it "not fair to ever call it a duck"?

In our carnal reality we are comfortable thinking of the spiritual as less "real" than the physical.
I merely ask if it is possible that the spiritual is more "real" than than the perishable flesh that now entraps us?

[At least your topic seems to be back on track, which is all I hoped to assist with.]

You ended one of your earlier posts with this question: "Is it fair to call a body that walks through doors and appears and disappears from a location a 'Spirit'?"

Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.

Jesus' body did those things, and it was not a spirit! He had flesh and bones in His resurrected physical body. He explicitly answers your question with a resounding "no."

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

The point was it was not true, until he died. The future point is physical death. Not some long term operation at the Second Coming. At the Second Coming, the physical dead are still walking around on earth. They are the ones in need of a resurrection.

The resurrection is going from this dead corruptible body to a permanent incorruptible body in Paradise. That is what happened to the thief that day on the cross. Jesus promised him a resurrection on that last day which was the day of resurrection for all those who by faith in the OT were also part of the church and the physical resurrection to an incorruptible body.

No living person ever, not even in the first century could prevent such a resurrection.

The Bible does not teach what you are saying. It is nonsensical to say, "At the Second Coming, the physical dead are still walking around on earth." Physically dead people do not do anything.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Your Bible should say:

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

Or does yours say:

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, eventually at the Second Coming, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

It is not I changing God's Word.

Does your Bible say:

"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be eventually at the Second Coming, with the Lord."

Or:

"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

We get an incorruptible permanent body immediately after the soul leaves this body.

False. We do not get an incorruptible permanent body immediately at death.

Being present with the Lord is to be absent from the body and present with Him in our spirits. The text does not say that being present with the Lord is to be with Him immediately in a new body.

 

[Yeshua1]

No, it is not fair to ever call a body a spirit. As for any specifics about what our imperishable bodies will be like, God has not revealed that information to us. They will still be physical bodies in the same sense that Christ still has a physical body today. He is still fully man and fully God.

Yes, we shall have the same kind of body He has, so will be physical in some aspect still, as he could eat with them!