General Redemption.

[Iconoclast]

Great intellectual argument can not deny the plain speech of scripture.

1 Timothy 4:10 and 1 John 2:2

...we trust in the living God,
who is the Saviour of all men,
specially of those that believe.

And he is the propitiation for our sins:
and not for ours only,
but also for the sins of the whole world.

can you explain those verses?
the sins of....is not in 1jn2:2

 

[37818]

@AustinC,

I owe you an apology. John owen very often refers to universal redemption.

I am not a universalist, in that, I do not believe everyone is going to be saved. Never have.

I believe Christ's redemption secured salvation for the saved and "deeper" damnation for the lost.

 

[AustinC]

@AustinC,

I owe you an apology. John owen very often refers to universal redemption.

I am not a universalist, in that, I do not believe everyone is going to be saved. Never have.

I believe Christ's redemption secured salvation for the saved and "deeper" damnation for the lost.

Accepted

 

[1689Dave]

I believe in a general redemption. I also understand redemption is particular when it comes to being saved. Now the Puritan John Owen in his book, The Death of Death in the Death of Christ, makes a near exhaustive case against the notion of general redemption. But they are not concise but long arguments. This work needs nevertheless to be understood, it is that important. I am not done studying this work.

If "General Redemption" means Christ died for each and every person, he did not save anyone, he only made it possible for people to save themselves. This robs God of his glory in salvation and allocates to people a value he thought worth dying for.

 

[37818]

If you believe in general redemption, you believe in universal atonement. They are synonymous.
You cannot logically toss limited atonement under universal atonement nor can you toss particular redemption under general redemption. They are separate thoughts that cannot be logically juxtaposed. You are speaking without reason.

General redemption does not toss particular redemption in anyway. What then becomes at issue must particular redemption toss general redemption which particular redemption would be a part of? Where in the word of God is general redemption an impossibility?

 

[37818]

You willfully choose to ignore. That is on you. You choose to be unreasonable and throw away reason. That is on you.

Your accusation. Where have you reasoned with me from the word of God or using an argument by John Owen?

 

[37818]

If "General Redemption" means Christ died for each and every person, he did not save anyone, he only made it possible for people to save themselves.

That is a strawman argument. Not even Biblical. John 1:12-13.

 

[37818]

In this thread the Biblical truth of particular redemption is not at issue.

What is at issue can it be shown, proven general redemption cannot also be true. I believe in both the general and particular redemption.

 

[1689Dave]

That is a strawman argument. Not even Biblical. John 1:12-13.

None righteous, no not one? But you claim your righteousness moved God to save you, thereby robbing him of his glory and applying it to yourself.

 

[Van]

Have you studied John Owen's arguments against a general redemption?
BTW, I believe everyone starts out in Christ the vine, John 15:1-6; 1 John 3:6.

There are no valid reasons against Christ making provision for redemption applicable for all.
I believe we all, humankind, start out separated from Christ in that we all were made sinners.

 

[37818]

None righteous, no not one? But you claim your righteousness moved God to save you, thereby robbing him of his glory and applying it to yourself.

I never have ever made any such claims of self righteousness. Need I call you some names too?
Do you really not believe John 1:12-13 ". . . not . . . will of man . . . ."

 

[1689Dave]

I never have ever made any such claims of self righteous. Need I call you some names too?
Do you really not believe John 1:12-13 ". . . not . . . will of man . . . ."

If you had any reason God saw thereby moving Him to save you, it's self-righteousness. How do you know God saved you? Because you did such and such?

 

[Van]

If you had any reason God saw thereby moving Him to save you, it's self-righteousness. How do you know God saved you? Because you did such and such?

Once again we see Calvinist nonsense spewed forth like vomit. Scripture says salvation does not depend upon the person who wills to be saved, or runs (does things) to be saved, but upon God alone. So God can choose individuals for salvation based not on their thinking they are self-righteous, but upon them thinking they are sinners in need of a savior. And why do we believe we are saved, because we did such and such? Nope, but because we believe God did such and such.

On and on folks...

 

[37818]

If you had any reason God saw thereby moving Him to save you, it's self-righteousness. How do you know God saved you? Because you did such and such?

Which type of forgiveness do you trust in?
Matthew 18:33-35.
Or.
Acts of the Apostles 10:43.

 

[1689Dave]

Which type of forgiveness do you trust in?
Matthew 18:33-35.
Or.
Acts of the Apostles 10:43.

“And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.” Acts 13:48 (KJV 1900)

“Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.” Hebrews 12:2 (KJV 1900)

“For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;” Philippians 1:29 (KJV 1900)

 

[37818]

“And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.” Acts 13:48 (KJV 1900)

“Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.” Hebrews 12:2 (KJV 1900)

“For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;” Philippians 1:29 (KJV 1900)

According these references what do you say was your answer?

Which type of forgiveness do you trust in?
Matthew 18:33-35.
Or.
Acts of the Apostles 10:43.

 

[1689Dave]

According these references what do you say was your answer?

You must be saved before you would even believe in the true Christ and want forgiveness. If you don't realize this, you think your sinful flesh did what only God can do. In the bible, people believe because God saved them. He did not save them because they forced the sinful flesh to believe in an idol they assume is Christ. Apart from the New Birth people cannot discern the true Gospel or Christ.

 

[37818]

You must be saved before you would even believe in the true Christ and want forgiveness.

Did they lie? ". . . what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, . . ."

 

[37818]

You must be saved before you would even believe in the true Christ and want forgiveness. If you don't realize this, you think your sinful flesh did what only God can do. In the bible, people believe because God saved them. He did not save them because they forced the sinful flesh to believe in an idol they assume is Christ. Apart from the New Birth people cannot discern the true Gospel or Christ.

You still did not answer what was asked:

Which type of forgiveness do you trust in?
Matthew 18:33-35.
Or.
Acts of the Apostles 10:43.

 

[1689Dave]

Did they lie? ". . . what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, . . ."

Was Paul giving them a law to keep, thereby turning the gospel into law which cannot save? Or assuring them that their belief shows they are saved? They obviously were saved and believed or they would have dismissed it as foolishness. They asked because they already believed and had their saved eyes open. Don't add to God's word, whatever you do.