Kingdom Theology

[Yeshua1]

They were mostly deceived by physical kingdom beliefs, just like today. Even the disciples didn't understand until later. But Peter preached the Amillennial position at Pentecost and Paul preached the same.

Jesus preached premil though!

 

[percho]

This "pushing off into the future" is an issue. I think this idea results in an apathetic mentality regarding the world around us.

I disagree to an extent in that pre-mill has not consistently pushed off Christ's reign into the future (although that is often the case). While it does look to a future reign it does not necessarily ignore Christ's reign in the present. Historic pre-mil, for example, sees Christ as King, reigning now but also looks for the kingdom to come in a different sense in the future (not a more full sense, as Christ is no less King now than He will be in the future, but a different sense in relation to the World).

Anyway, it is interesting to look at various views.

I do not understand the purpose of "the millennium" (a temporary state before judgment?").

But to be fair, my lack of understanding has no bearing on the issue. But it is something I never quite grasped.

I do not understand the purpose of "the millennium" (a temporary state before judgment?").


Joel 2:28 NKJV
“And it shall come to pass afterward
That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your old men shall dream dreams,
Your young men shall see visions.

When do you think afterward, is?
Does, "all," mean all?

Acts 15:8 NKJV
“So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us,
Are those, "them," and, "us," "all," or they the ones having the first-fruit of the Spirit as in Romans 8:23?

What is the purpose of the, "millennium,"?

Ezek 21:27
I will overturn, overturn, overturn, it: and it shall be no more, until he come whose right it is; and I will give it him.

I believe, "it," to be the throne, the house of David.

Acts 15:16 NLT
‘Afterward I will return --- Afterward what? After taking out a people for his name to rule with Christ?
and restore the fallen house[fn] of David. --- fn - 15:16 Or kingdom; Greek reads tent.
I will rebuild its ruins
and restore it,

Why? Where will Satan the devil be prior to the, "millennium," according to the word of God?

Acts 15:17
That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

That is the purpose. Can they seek without being given the Holy Spirit? Can they call him Lord without being given the Holy Spirit?

1 Cor 12:3 NKJV
Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Yeshua1]

I disagree. The early church was pre-mil, although not how we may consider pre-mil, and believed they were living through the "tribulation", yet they held a very strong and biblical view of the kingdom. They may not have been correct, or they may have, in terms of the millennium, but their eschatological understanding did not have the effect on their understanding of the kingdom one may assume.

They were historical premil

 

[tyndale1946]

Jesus preached premil though!

Does this sound like premil to you?... Brother Glen

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Where Jesus Christ is NOW!... That's where I'm going because the LORD said so!

 

[John of Japan]

I know you think that "all" Christians between Christ and the 2nd Century were premillennialist's. Show us all documents from that era and show how these saints all were premillennialist's. You are speaking from a couple documents and expressing that all saints believed Jesus would come back and reign for 1000 years, then walk away and let the earth go to hell for a time period before coming back yet again.
When we read the Bible we see all the saints being admonished to look for Jesus return. The Apostles never say, "By the way, it will only be for 1000 years and then Jesus will leave yet again."
What we see is that Jesus returns. He judges the earth with fire and then He reigns forever with His people.

So, the onus of proof is on you.

This isn't my idea. Scholars of eschatology of all positions universally teach this.

A grammatical-historical hermeneutic will always, without fail, lead to premillennialism. Therefore, we would suppose that the early churches, operating before allegorical interpretation entered the church, would have been premillennial, and so they were.

“It is generally agreed that the view of the church for the centuries immediately following the Apostolic era was the premillennial view of the return of Christ” (J. Dwight Pentecost, Things to Come, p. 373.) There is plenty of evidence that the early church fathers, the pastors of the early centuries, all held to a premillennial doctrine of the Second Coming. Here are quotes proving their premillennialism.

Papias of Hieropolis recorded in Irenaeus and Eusebius as holding to “a thousand year period” of blessing.

Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho the Jew, 80-81, “I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned, and enlarged, as the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare.” And he specifically links all this to the book of Revelation.

Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 5.30.4, “But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom, that is, the rest, the hallowed seventh day; and restoring to Abraham the promised inheritance.”

Tertullian, 160-220 AD, Against Marcion, 3.24, “But we do confess that a kingdom is promised to us upon the earth, although before heaven, only in another state of existence; inasmuch as it will be after the resurrection for a thousand years in the divinely-built city of Jerusalem, ‘let down from heaven,’ which the apostle also calls ‘our mother from above;’ and, while declaring that our citizenship is in heaven, he predicates of it that it is really a city in heaven. This both Ezekiel had knowledge of and the Apostle John beheld.”

The first major opponent to premillennial thinking was Clement of Alexandria (150-215), with the beginnings of an emphasis on allegorical interpretation (from Philo).

It is not until Augustine in the fifth century that we have the first actual opposition of the premillennial position in favor of a systematic, thought-out system of a-millennialism: “This opinion [future pre-mil] might be allowed, if it purposed only spiritual delight unto the saints during this space (and we were once of the same opinion ourselves); but seeing the avouchers hereof affirm that the saints after this resurrection shall do nothing but revel in fleshly banquets, where the cheer shall exceed both modesty and measure, this is gross and fit for none but carnal men to believe. But they that are really and truly spiritual do call those of this opinion Chiliasts.” So then, in City of God, Augustine argues that the “millennium” was actually “the history of the Church on earth.” (City of God, 20.7, early 5th century).

 

[John of Japan]

Does this sound like premil to you?... Brother Glen

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Where Jesus Christ is NOW!... That's where I'm going because the LORD said so!

That's premil, brother. He is now preparing a place for us (the New Jerusalem) and will come and get us. Very premil.

 

[John of Japan]

Why was Jesus not accepted in his kingdom teaching, then and now if they aren't deceived by Phariseeism?

Please consider the spiritual nature of the Kingdom:


Daniel said; “And in the days of these kings [Old Roman Empire] shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.” Daniel 2:44 (NCPB)

“And [Jesus] saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” (Matthew 3:2) (KJV 1900)

“And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.” (Matthew 11:12) (KJV 1900)

“Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.” (Matthew 16:28) (KJV 1900)

“Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.” (1 Corinthians 15:50)

“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” (John 3:3) (KJV 1900)

“Jesus answered, “I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born of water and spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” (John 3:5)

“Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.” (John 18:36) (KJV 1900)

“And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:” (Luke 17:20) (KJV 1900)

“Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.” (Luke 17:21) (KJV 1900)

“But if I cast out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has already overtaken you.” (Luke 11:20)

“The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.” Luke 16:16 (KJV 1900)

“because we are not looking at what can be seen but at what cannot be seen. For what can be seen is temporary, but what cannot be seen is eternal.” (2 Corinthians 4:18)

“Now when the people saw the miraculous sign that Jesus performed, they began to say to one another, “This is certainly the Prophet who is to come into the world.” Then Jesus, because he knew they were going to come and seize him by force to make him king, withdrew again up the mountainside alone.” (John 6:14–15)

“He delivered us from the power of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of the Son he loves,” (Colossians 1:13)

“When Jesus saw that he answered intelligently, He said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And no one dared to question Him any longer.” (Mark 12:34) (HCSB)

“for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit.” (Romans 14:17) (HCSB)

“I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.” Revelation 1:9 (NASB95)

“But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.” Acts 8:12 (KJV 1900)

“That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.” 1 Thessalonians 2:12 (KJV 1900)

“And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God.” Acts 19:8 (KJV 1900)

“And when thy days [David] be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.” 2 Samuel 7:12–13 (KJV 1900)

“who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son,” Colossians 1:13 (NCPB)

“For the kingdom is the LORD’s: and he is the governor among the nations.” Psalm 22:28 (NCPB)

Where is your and their "Millennium" in this?

You are not paying attention. Again I'll say it: premillennialists believe that the Kingdom of God was/is immaterial (in the heart), but the Davidic Kingdom (the kingdom of the millennium) is physical. Christ will physically reign on the throne of David in the millennium. You are lumping all of these mentions together, but a list of verses proves nothing, as has often been pointed out on the BB. You have to exegete. Some of these verses refer to a physical kingdom and some to the "Kingdom of God." Chiliasts do not conflate the two.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

You are not paying attention. Again I'll say it: premillennialists believe that the Kingdom of God was/is immaterial (in the heart), but the Davidic Kingdom (the kingdom of the millennium) is physical. Christ will physically reign on the throne of David in the millennium. You are lumping all of these mentions together, but a list of verses proves nothing, as has often been pointed out on the BB. You have to exegete. Some of these verses refer to a physical kingdom and some to the "Kingdom of God." Chiliasts do not conflate the two.

I am a premillennialist, and I do not believe "that the Kingdom of God was/is [only] immaterial (in the heart) . . . ."

God is the eternal King of everything, including all of the material universe (Ps. 103:19; Ps. 145:13; Dan. 4:34). That sense of the kingdom of God is all-encompassing, eternal, and unchanging.

So a fully biblical understanding about all that Scripture reveals about the kingdom of God includes at least distinguishing among the passages that speak of the eternal kingdom, the spiritual kingdom, and the Davidic/millennial kingdom.

 

[AustinC]

You are not paying attention. Again I'll say it: premillennialists believe that the Kingdom of God was/is immaterial (in the heart), but the Davidic Kingdom (the kingdom of the millennium) is physical. Christ will physically reign on the throne of David in the millennium. You are lumping all of these mentions together, but a list of verses proves nothing, as has often been pointed out on the BB. You have to exegete. Some of these verses refer to a physical kingdom and some to the "Kingdom of God." Chiliasts do not conflate the two.

Be more specific. Dispensationalists chop up God's work into many parts and then try to force God into those pieces.
It is clear in scripture that the Kingdom has always been from eternity and it will continue into eternity. No dual kingdoms. We see Jesus in Genesis 1 (connected with John 1). We see Jesus in Joshua 5:14 as the commander of the Lord's Army. This is again expressed in Isaiah 25:6-9 in the feast at the table as it connects with Hebrews 12:22.
All believers are presently Kingdom citizens living in a foreign land as ambassadors of reconciliation.
The Kingdom is now.

 

[1689Dave]

You are not paying attention. Again I'll say it: premillennialists believe that the Kingdom of God was/is immaterial (in the heart), but the Davidic Kingdom (the kingdom of the millennium) is physical. Christ will physically reign on the throne of David in the millennium. You are lumping all of these mentions together, but a list of verses proves nothing, as has often been pointed out on the BB. You have to exegete. Some of these verses refer to a physical kingdom and some to the "Kingdom of God." Chiliasts do not conflate the two.

Why did the Pharisees reject the gospel of the kingdom? Because their's is physical. one of sight. And Jesus' kingdom is of faith. That only the born-again can see.

 

[John of Japan]

I am a premillennialist, and I do not believe "that the Kingdom of God was/is [only] immaterial (in the heart) . . . ."

God is the eternal King of everything, including all of the material universe (Ps. 103:19; Ps. 145:13; Dan. 4:34). That sense of the kingdom of God is all-encompassing, eternal, and unchanging.

So a fully biblical understanding about all that Scripture reveals about the kingdom of God includes at least distinguishing among the passages that speak of the eternal kingdom, the spiritual kingdom, and the Davidic/millennial kingdom.

Well, I'm sure you're right. It's a complicated study, and I haven't done it in many years, so I appreciate this contribution. Fortunately, I didn't use the word "only" in my post.

 

[thomas15]

Why did the Pharisees reject the gospel of the kingdom? Because their's is physical. one of sight. And Jesus' kingdom is of faith. That only the born-again can see.

The Pharisees and Chief Priests rejected Jesus for many reasons but mainly because it would have stripped them of their social and political power. This was unacceptable to them. But of course all of this was predicted in the OT. Even before the Israelites entered the Promised Land, Moses told them that as soon as he died, they would become utterly corrupt and continue to be corrupt until the latter days. Deut 31:29

This concept, that Jehovah knew that the Jews would reject Jesus at His first coming makes covenant theology quite doubtful.

 

[John of Japan]

Why did the Pharisees reject the gospel of the kingdom? Because their's is physical. one of sight. And Jesus' kingdom is of faith. That only the born-again can see.

Well, again, you are not interacting with my position on the millennium being the Davidic Kingdom. Perhaps you can't.

Now, you seem to be saying, "Immaterial = good, but physical = bad." Surely you are not doing that, right? That would be similar to Gnosticism, which taught that all matter was evil.

The millennial kingdom will be physical, but Jesus is physical, is he not? Or, as a full preterist (I think you said that at one point), do you believe that Jesus is no longer physical? There is only one other full preterist on the BB as far as I know, and he recently continually ignored my request that he tell us when Jesus lost His physical, resurrection body. That would be a reverse of the Incarnation, and a major, major event. Yet it never appears in Scripture.

 

[John of Japan]

Be more specific. Dispensationalists chop up God's work into many parts and then try to force God into those pieces.

Um, no, we don't.

It is clear in scripture that the Kingdom has always been from eternity and it will continue into eternity. No dual kingdoms. We see Jesus in Genesis 1 (connected with John 1). We see Jesus in Joshua 5:14 as the commander of the Lord's Army. This is again expressed in Isaiah 25:6-9 in the feast at the table as it connects with Hebrews 12:22.
All believers are presently Kingdom citizens living in a foreign land as ambassadors of reconciliation.
The Kingdom is now.

What, King Jesus can't have two crowns? Many kings in history have ruled over more than one kingdom. Jesus is king of the Kingdom of God, and in fulfillment of prophecy He will sit on the Davidic throne. That has been prophesied over and over in the Scriptures.

The Jews all understood this. Mark 11:10--"Blessed be the kingdom of our father David, that cometh in the name of the Lord: Hosanna in the highest."

 

[kyredneck]

Our ministry is undergirded by full preterist eschatology.

Agree! ...and welcome to the BB.

 

[kyredneck]

Or the kingdom is instead one "not of this world".

I believe a motif in the scriptures is that the Church is it's embassy and we are it's ambassadors (among many other 'motifs').

 

[AustinC]

Um, no, we don't.


What, King Jesus can't have two crowns? Many kings in history have ruled over more than one kingdom. Jesus is king of the Kingdom of God, and in fulfillment of prophecy He will sit on the Davidic throne. That has been prophesied over and over in the Scriptures.

The Jews all understood this. Mark 11:10--"Blessed be the kingdom of our father David, that cometh in the name of the Lord: Hosanna in the highest."

You show your dispensationalism, which is why you cannot accept that Jesus is King...period. He's not just relegated to a tiny, rather insignificant kingdom in the Middle East. Jesus was born in the line of David according to the promise, but Jesus has always been a person whom David bowed to and called Jesus...LORD.

It is this silly twisting and wild attempts to connect that moved me away from dispensationalism. It's just such a disconnected attempt to label every tree that it misses the forest entirely.

 

[Yeshua1]

This isn't my idea. Scholars of eschatology of all positions universally teach this.

A grammatical-historical hermeneutic will always, without fail, lead to premillennialism. Therefore, we would suppose that the early churches, operating before allegorical interpretation entered the church, would have been premillennial, and so they were.

“It is generally agreed that the view of the church for the centuries immediately following the Apostolic era was the premillennial view of the return of Christ” (J. Dwight Pentecost, Things to Come, p. 373.) There is plenty of evidence that the early church fathers, the pastors of the early centuries, all held to a premillennial doctrine of the Second Coming. Here are quotes proving their premillennialism.

Papias of Hieropolis recorded in Irenaeus and Eusebius as holding to “a thousand year period” of blessing.

Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho the Jew, 80-81, “I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned, and enlarged, as the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare.” And he specifically links all this to the book of Revelation.

Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 5.30.4, “But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom, that is, the rest, the hallowed seventh day; and restoring to Abraham the promised inheritance.”

Tertullian, 160-220 AD, Against Marcion, 3.24, “But we do confess that a kingdom is promised to us upon the earth, although before heaven, only in another state of existence; inasmuch as it will be after the resurrection for a thousand years in the divinely-built city of Jerusalem, ‘let down from heaven,’ which the apostle also calls ‘our mother from above;’ and, while declaring that our citizenship is in heaven, he predicates of it that it is really a city in heaven. This both Ezekiel had knowledge of and the Apostle John beheld.”

The first major opponent to premillennial thinking was Clement of Alexandria (150-215), with the beginnings of an emphasis on allegorical interpretation (from Philo).

It is not until Augustine in the fifth century that we have the first actual opposition of the premillennial position in favor of a systematic, thought-out system of a-millennialism: “This opinion [future pre-mil] might be allowed, if it purposed only spiritual delight unto the saints during this space (and we were once of the same opinion ourselves); but seeing the avouchers hereof affirm that the saints after this resurrection shall do nothing but revel in fleshly banquets, where the cheer shall exceed both modesty and measure, this is gross and fit for none but carnal men to believe. But they that are really and truly spiritual do call those of this opinion Chiliasts.” So then, in City of God, Augustine argues that the “millennium” was actually “the history of the Church on earth.” (City of God, 20.7, early 5th century).

Their premil would be historical, not the pre trib rapture view, and Augustine view became the dominant one afterwards due to the Catholic Church making the Kingdom same as the Church of Rome!

 

[asterisktom]

Our ministry is undergirded by full preterist eschatology. Not meaning to start a debate about eschatology, but here are my observations pastorally speaking:
...

The church is the Kingdom of God, and we are its royal priesthood. Encountering God in our midst is our highest hope, and He gives of Himself graciously.

Welcome to BB, Stephen. I am always glad to meet another full preterist. There are a lot of decent folks here from a whole spectrum of "isms". I hope you feel welcome here.

 

[Yeshua1]

You are not paying attention. Again I'll say it: premillennialists believe that the Kingdom of God was/is immaterial (in the heart), but the Davidic Kingdom (the kingdom of the millennium) is physical. Christ will physically reign on the throne of David in the millennium. You are lumping all of these mentions together, but a list of verses proves nothing, as has often been pointed out on the BB. You have to exegete. Some of these verses refer to a physical kingdom and some to the "Kingdom of God." Chiliasts do not conflate the two.

The Messianic Age as foretold by the OT prophets would have an earthly kingdom and a King reigning!