Kingdom Theology

[Yeshua1]

Be more specific. Dispensationalists chop up God's work into many parts and then try to force God into those pieces.
It is clear in scripture that the Kingdom has always been from eternity and it will continue into eternity. No dual kingdoms. We see Jesus in Genesis 1 (connected with John 1). We see Jesus in Joshua 5:14 as the commander of the Lord's Army. This is again expressed in Isaiah 25:6-9 in the feast at the table as it connects with Hebrews 12:22.
All believers are presently Kingdom citizens living in a foreign land as ambassadors of reconciliation.
The Kingdom is now.

There are Covenant theology premils such as myself who do see the Kingdom as being here in part, but not as of yet in full!

 

[Yeshua1]

You show your dispensationalism, which is why you cannot accept that Jesus is King...period. He's not just relegated to a tiny, rather insignificant kingdom in the Middle East. Jesus was born in the line of David according to the promise, but Jesus has always been a person whom David bowed to and called Jesus...LORD.

It is this silly twisting and wild attempts to connect that moved me away from dispensationalism. It's just such a disconnected attempt to label every tree that it misses the forest entirely.

Is this present age under the direct reigning of Lord Jesus, or is Satan being permitted to be the god of this age?

 

[John of Japan]

You show your dispensationalism, which is why you cannot accept that Jesus is King...period.

"You show your dispensationalism." Really? What's that all about? Of course I do!!! Good grief. That's ridiculous. And yes, I fully accept that Jesus is King. He is the king of my life and has been since I was16. I believe in the Kingdom of God with all of my heart, and I believe with all of my heart that Jesus will rule the earth (not just Israel) for 1000 years on the throne of David. All of your mocking and attacks will not change that.

He's not just relegated to a tiny, rather insignificant kingdom in the Middle East. Jesus was born in the line of David according to the promise, but Jesus has always been a person whom David bowed to and called Jesus...LORD.

It is this silly twisting and wild attempts to connect that moved me away from dispensationalism. It's just such a disconnected attempt to label every tree that it misses the forest entirely.

Wow. So you won't interact with what I actually wrote, but prefer to attack me with "silly twisting and wild attempts." Okay, since you won't actually discuss doctrine, I'm done. God bless you.

 

[percho]

That's premil, brother. He is now preparing a place for us (the New Jerusalem) and will come and get us. Very premil.

John, I know, no Greek.

How far is the concept of John 14:2 from 2 Cor 5:2 of which the same word, for house, is used in Jude 1:6 as habitation?

Is that the habitation of which Jesus was raised, out of the dead? Is that what was prepared as our future, habitation, abode, at his coming? Compare Phil 3:20,21 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

 

[percho]

I also know, no Hebrew but let me ask.

Is not that same concept, relative to the one who first descended to the lower parts of the earth, at death Jesus, as seen in ? Psalms 139:15,16 My substance was not hid from Thee, When I was made in secret, Curiously wrought in the lower part of earth. Mine unformed substance Thine eyes saw, And on Thy book all of them are written, The days they were formed -- And not one among them.

The man Jesus first clothed then we clothed as he has been at his coming?

 

[John of Japan]

John, I know, no Greek.

How far is the concept of John 14:2 from 2 Cor 5:2 of which the same word, for house, is used in Jude 1:6 as habitation?

The word in John 14:2 is oikia (οἰκίᾳ), simply meaning "dwelling place," including perhaps just a one room apartment. In 2 Cor. 5:2 and Jude v. 6, as you note, it is the same word, oiketerion (οἰκητήριον), more of a general term, as I see it, so "habitation" instead of "dwelling place." An animal might have a habitation, but not a dwelling place.

Is that the habitation of which Jesus was raised, out of the dead? Is that what was prepared as our future, habitation, abode, at his coming? Compare Phil 3:20,21 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

I would interpret it in Jude as being where they were supposed to be in God's plan--their normal location. The latter word only appears twice in the NT, and it is not used of Christ.

 

[John of Japan]

I also know, no Hebrew but let me ask.

Is not that same concept, relative to the one who first descended to the lower parts of the earth, at death Jesus, as seen in ? Psalms 139:15,16 My substance was not hid from Thee, When I was made in secret, Curiously wrought in the lower part of earth. Mine unformed substance Thine eyes saw, And on Thy book all of them are written, The days they were formed -- And not one among them.

The man Jesus first clothed then we clothed as he has been at his coming?

I just ran out of time--the wife is picking me up. But maybe I can get to this in the morning.

 

[percho]

I just ran out of time--the wife is picking me up. But maybe I can get to this in the morning.

Keep in mind the key word in my first post was, concept. Not that it is the same word. BTW thanks for reply.

 

[1689Dave]

Well, again, you are not interacting with my position on the millennium being the Davidic Kingdom. Perhaps you can't.

Now, you seem to be saying, "Immaterial = good, but physical = bad." Surely you are not doing that, right? That would be similar to Gnosticism, which taught that all matter was evil.

The millennial kingdom will be physical, but Jesus is physical, is he not? Or, as a full preterist (I think you said that at one point), do you believe that Jesus is no longer physical? There is only one other full preterist on the BB as far as I know, and he recently continually ignored my request that he tell us when Jesus lost His physical, resurrection body. That would be a reverse of the Incarnation, and a major, major event. Yet it never appears in Scripture.

All said, unless anyone is born again they cannot see the kingdom. That in itself rules our Pharisees and their physical kingdom. The result of their blindness God inflicted on them through literalism. I see the kingdom clearly and rejoice in it every day. I don't look for a kingdom of sight, my kingdom is of faith. And whatever is not of faith is sin.

 

[1689Dave]

The Pharisees and Chief Priests rejected Jesus for many reasons but mainly because it would have stripped them of their social and political power. This was unacceptable to them. But of course all of this was predicted in the OT. Even before the Israelites entered the Promised Land, Moses told them that as soon as he died, they would become utterly corrupt and continue to be corrupt until the latter days. Deut 31:29

This concept, that Jehovah knew that the Jews would reject Jesus at His first coming makes covenant theology quite doubtful.

But he proved to the spiritually enlightened, the Pharisee's millennial kingdom is false. Based on the blindness God inflicted on them through forced literalism.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Well, I'm sure you're right. It's a complicated study, and I haven't done it in many years, so I appreciate this contribution. Fortunately, I didn't use the word "only" in my post.

Yes, it is a complicated study. I am fully confident that any position that says that the kingdom of God is only spiritual is categorically wrong and does not accurately reflect the teaching of Scripture.

 

[JonC]

The safe way is to let Jesus interpret the OT scriptures in his spiritual manner for us.

The safest way is to just take Christ at His word without spritualizing or rationalizing what He said.

 

[JonC]

I do not understand the purpose of "the millennium" (a temporary state before judgment?").


Joel 2:28 NKJV
“And it shall come to pass afterward
That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your old men shall dream dreams,
Your young men shall see visions.

When do you think afterward, is?
Does, "all," mean all?

Acts 15:8 NKJV
“So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us,
Are those, "them," and, "us," "all," or they the ones having the first-fruit of the Spirit as in Romans 8:23?

What is the purpose of the, "millennium,"?

Ezek 21:27
I will overturn, overturn, overturn, it: and it shall be no more, until he come whose right it is; and I will give it him.

I believe, "it," to be the throne, the house of David.

Acts 15:16 NLT
‘Afterward I will return --- Afterward what? After taking out a people for his name to rule with Christ?
and restore the fallen house[fn] of David. --- fn - 15:16 Or kingdom; Greek reads tent.
I will rebuild its ruins
and restore it,

Why? Where will Satan the devil be prior to the, "millennium," according to the word of God?

Acts 15:17
That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

That is the purpose. Can they seek without being given the Holy Spirit? Can they call him Lord without being given the Holy Spirit?

1 Cor 12:3 NKJV
Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

I understand "afterwards", and what was to come. My question is in regard to Christ coming to reign differently for a millennium and then the judgment.

I do not understand the actual purpose.

 

[JonC]

They were historical premil

Yes, they were. This is the position I hold. But it does not make it correct (either the early church or me holding it). My point is that the early church was historic pre-mil without sacrificing the kingdom of God on earth during their time.

 

[Iconoclast]

The Messianic Age as foretold by the OT prophets would have an earthly kingdom and a King reigning!

Where was that? Could you provide such passages?

 

[Iconoclast]

I understand "afterwards", and what was to come. My question is in regard to Christ coming to reign differently for a millennium and then the judgment.

I do not understand the actual purpose.

Why it is hard to grasp is...it requires many strange concepts. Everything that existed in the first century has to be rebuilt..
another temple, animal sacrifices, another antichrist, another destruction of Jerusalem, as if Jerusalem were still the holy place?? rebuilt Roman empire?

Then we have this idea of saved and unsaved, some glorified, some not glorified, living on earth...while the glorified Lord is in a physical temple

So the risen Glorified Christ is sitting, reigning in Jerusalem.

Do regular people still go to work? The creator of all things is here on earth.
So rather than going to be a janitor and sweep the gym at the local High School, that janitor would not want to go see his creator?

Would all the church members defile the lord's day, with Jesus ruling with a rod of Iron? Would they skip worship to watch the NFL?

Would preaching continue while Jesus is here on earth?

No premill person answers these kind of questions, because it is absurd.

John fell at Jesus as a dead man.
17 When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man

He had seen the risen Christ, yet when he saw the glorified Lord he fell at as a dead man.So we are to believe it will be business as usual?

 

[kyredneck]

Be more specific. Dispensationalists chop up God's work into many parts and then try to force God into those pieces.

Um, no, we don't.

Um, yes, you do. Example:

the eternal kingdom, the spiritual kingdom, and the Davidic/millennial kingdom.

Dispensationalists chop the scriptures to pieces.

 

[John of Japan]

All said, unless anyone is born again they cannot see the kingdom. That in itself rules our Pharisees and their physical kingdom. The result of their blindness God inflicted on them through literalism. I see the kingdom clearly and rejoice in it every day. I don't look for a kingdom of sight, my kingdom is of faith. And whatever is not of faith is sin.

I'm born again. Have been for 65 years. I'm in the kingdom. And I wait for the other kingdom.

 

[John of Japan]

Um, yes, you do. Example:

Dispensationalists chop the scriptures to pieces.

Um, yeah, that's not real theology. Simply your opinion.

 

[John of Japan]

I also know, no Hebrew but let me ask.

Is not that same concept, relative to the one who first descended to the lower parts of the earth, at death Jesus, as seen in ? Psalms 139:15,16 My substance was not hid from Thee, When I was made in secret, Curiously wrought in the lower part of earth. Mine unformed substance Thine eyes saw, And on Thy book all of them are written, The days they were formed -- And not one among them.

The man Jesus first clothed then we clothed as he has been at his coming?

As it turns out, I have some time before church.

The Hebrew word for "substance" in Ps. 139:15 is one's physical stature--the bones, in particular. In v. 16 here is no new word (in italics in the KJV), but it is simply referring back to the word in v. 15.

So, the physical form of Jesus in the incarnation was prophesied. Then His body took its resurrected form, and that is what it is now.

God bless!